Seems to me that it is a very small risk to try for FEPP. Again, you can choose to decline the FDA if they have an opening. Hire an accountant to do your taxes and he can figure out the tax issues if you need to repay the company.

Just as 4.A.2.b was a loophole which the company utilized, this is one that could work in your favor also. Still not sure how the HKG Airbus will fly in Europe, but if they choose to double deadhead you HKG-CDG, sign me up. I'm sure I can find a ticket to get me there from the states. It seems to me that they are trying to scare folks from bidding HKG and getting FEPP.

I think FEPP to CGN would be a great deal for some also. Less pay but a better place to go...

That's exactly what I thought when I read that!

That's pretty much their plan.

True up until 2008 when the company decided to utilize the excess bids to bump and flush. There are junior captains and FO's getting ready to be flushed a second time in four years. There will always be some movement due to aircraft utilization, but far less than the current havoc suffered by quite a few of our brethren who "did the right thing" by upgrading as early as they could.

Something to think about for our next contract negotiations?

What happens to an excessed 30FM who is awarded 30FH when there is no actual vacancy for HKG? Do you stay on the A300 in MEM until there is a slot in HKG or do you flush to the 757 as an excessed WB FO and get FEPP in the meantime? This is not being asked as a passover pay question as I mostly understand that part...but what seat do you actually sit in since you're being excessed off your current seat and your awarded future seat has no openings.

Same with CGN awards for FO's. There were about 7 awarded but there was no published excess nor vacancy for 757 CGN. CGN FO doesn't generate any pay issues such as FEPP...so why did 7 slots get awarded? Does that mean there are slots actually open but not published on a vacancy? Thanks.

you stay in your current seat/domicile until you activate via a base transfer or complete ITU if required. In the case of MEM to HKG you will wait for the base transfer, whenever that might be. Could be very quick since no ITU required. Of course that depends if they are truly going to transfer our most senior MEM A300 flying to HKG. That should really make points:eek:

So long as ALL of the FO seats in the FDA are filled the Involuntarily Excessed MEM A-300 FO will go to the 757 in inverse seniority order and will be eligible for passover pay if there are pilots currently in the FDA that are junior to the pilot in our example.

And they will get WB P/O pay until they are 1) activated into a different WB FO seat or 2) they are sent to HKG. At that point they will be just getting the pay for the airplane which they have been awarded.

he can't be "sent" to HKG unless he is actually awarded the seat. In his example he stated he was going to be awarded HKG FO. If he is not awarded HKG FO and ends up in the 757 FO seat and was denied HKG he would then become FEPP eligible. He would only go to HKG if he was awarded the seat on a subsequent bid.

Thanks for the quick replies. Maybe to clarify a little more, why or how are there seats being awarded in HKG and CGN without published vacancies there or excesses there? Is this normal for FDA assignment? Is this called a secondary? I thought ALL vacancies were published. Thanks.

yes, the best term is secondary, but in reality they are closet primary vacancy's that are not accessible to all pilots since they are being filled by an excess award only at this point. If they award you HKG FO, that is a permanent vacancy for you, no matter the technical name of the award.

We are in agreement on being forced "sent" to hkg.

The choice would have to remain on the standing bid and there would have to be a vacancy in hkg that the company needed to fill.

There are NO Vacancies published in an EXCESS Posting.

If your seat is declared by The Company (via the Excess Posting) to be in EXCESS, you are eligible to bid on any seat in the fleet. Whether or not you are awarded that bid usually depends on only one factor -- your seniority number. If you are senior enough to hold it, you get it. If you're not, you don't.

Here's a simple example. You're an MD-11 FO and your seat is declared in excess. You Bid to Relieve by placing B-757 CAPT and B-757 FO above your current seat award on your Standing Bid. You tell The Company you want to leave your seat:

B-757 CAPT 100%
B-757 FO 100%
MD-11 FO 100% (current seat)

The bid closes, the numbers are crunched, and the computer works its way down the MD-11 FO seat. They get down to you and they still have more Excesses to process, so you're going to get your wish, you get to move. The most junior B-757 Capt is senior to you, so you do not get that award. The most junior B-757 FO is junior to you, so you are awarded B-757 FO seat, and you will train in seniority order.

Another way to bid on an Excess Bid is "Bid to be excessed." That's the CBA term, but our Negotiating Committee/Contract Enforcement/Grievance/Attorneys found a way to add to the confusion by inventing another term which you'll find in common use -- Involuntary Excess. It's your way to tell The Company you want to stay in your seat as long as possible, you'll only leave kicking and screaming. Taking the above example, assume you'd be eager to move to the B-757 Capt seat, but not to the B-757 FO seat. You bid to be excessed (or bid for Involuntary Excess) by placing that choice below your current seat.

B-757 CAPT 100%
MD-11 FO 100% (current seat)
B-757 FO 100%

This bid is processed differently. The computer works its way down the list trying to find enough excesses. It finds your B-757 CAPT Bid to Relieve bid, sees that you're not senior enough to hold it, so it continues working its way down the list to the bottom. If it still hasn't found enough Bid to Relieve bids, it starts working its way up from the bottom looking for "Bid to Be Excessed" bodies. Everybody at that point is considered to be bidding to be excessed (Involuntary Excess), so it's good to have something in the standing bid to tell The Company where you want to go. Otherwise, if you don't have sufficient bid choices, The Company will just place you where your seniority can get you. But you've got B-757 FO listed, so if they get back up to you and still haven't gotten enough excesses, they'll look at your B-757 FO choice, see that you have seniority to hold it, and will award you that seat.

The big difference with the Bid To Be Excessed (Involuntary Excess) award is that your seniority and desire to not leave your current seat will be honored by training in Inverse Seniority order. In this scenario, all pilots awarded B-757 FOs by Bid To Relieve will be trained in seniority order. THEN, all B-757 FOs by Bid to Be Excessed will be trained in Inverse Seniority Order. So, if you are the most senior pilot on the resulting training letter, you can either be first in line as a result of a Bid to Relieve award, or last in line, as a result of a Bid to Be Excessed award.

FDAs throw another kink in the process, another factor to consider. In the above examples, the pilot was eligible to bid because The Company declared his seat to be in excess -- a negative number was placed adjacent to his seat position in the Excess Posting. Both of the seats to which he bid were not in excess -- no negative numbers. At the end of the process, the number of B-757 Captains and B-757 FOs will increase. One might assume that the increase in numbers would constitute an excess, but that's something that only The Company can determine. They decide what constitutes an excess, not us, and not some arbitrary number. At the end of the process they may decide there is an excess in the B-757 Captain seat, and post another Excess Posting. On the other hand, they may decide that the number of B-757 Captains is agreeable to them.

That same principle applies to the FDAs. If there are 65 HKG A300 Captains, only The Company can decide how many HKG A300 Captains constitutes an excess. It is not automatic that 66 is an excess. The number is not published, and it is determined completely at the whim and pleasure of The Company.

Let's say that they decide that 65 is the number, and 66 is excess. If the above pilot includes HKG A300 CAPT on his Standing bid, the results could change dramatically. Let's say he bids B-757 CAPT and HKG A300 CAPT "To Relieve" and B-757 FO "To Be Excessed":

B-757 CAPT 100%
HKG A300 CAPT 100%
MD-11 FO 100% (current seat)
B-757 FO 100%

Again, the computer works its way down the list trying to find enough excesses. It finds your B-757 CAPT Bid to Relieve bid, sees that you're not senior enough to hold it, so no award. Then it sees your HKG A300 CAPT 100% bid and sees that you are senior to the most junior pilot currently in that seat. Because The Company has decided that 65 is good, and 66 is excess, you will be denied that bid award, because your bid cannot cause an excess in an FDA. Therefore, it continues working its way down the list to the bottom. If it still hasn't found enough Bid to Relieve bids, it starts working its way up from the bottom looking for "Bid to Be Excessed" bodies. Let's say this time that before the computer works its way back up to you, they find enough bodies to fill the Excess Posting, so you receive no bid award. You get to stay in your MD-11 FO seat.

However, since you were denied an FDA seat, you become eligible for FDA Excess Passover Pay - FEPP. All pilots who are eligible for FEPP are grouped together, and The Company creates a "Virtual" training letter that assumes a certain training pipeline throughput. They can't train everybody instantly, so everyone does not receive FEPP instantly. The "Virtual Training Dates" are then given in seniority order to pilots who Bid to Relieve, followed by pilots in inverse seniority order who Bid To Be Excessed. Once the Virtual Training Date arrives, the pilot begins receiving the FEPP, provided he has not removed the FDA bid from his standing bid on a subsequent Vacancy or Excess posting.

So, to summarize, the FDA Bid To Relieve or Bid To Be Excessed depends on two factors -- seniority, and The Company's determination as to what constitutes an excess. You cannot cause an excess, but you also cannot determine what constitutes an excess -- only The Company can.


Here's where The Company's recent threat comes into play. The Company is basically telling us that while there are 65 Captains there now (not the exact number, just an approximation for the discussion), 66 is not an excess. In fact, they're saying they might go as high as 100. Consequently, when they get to you in the process and find your HKG bid, they might award it instead of denying it.

Because they suddenly have 35 new lines of flying in Hong Kong.

Because it's so much cheaper to deadhead a pilot from HKG to CDG and back than it is to deadhead a pilot from MEM.

Yeah, right.


Two more points worth considering here.

You can always decline the bid award. If you do, you will incur a 2-year seat freeze. If you're an MD-11 FO faced with HKG Capt or B-757 FO, and you're awarded HKG Capt and refuse, what's the downside of being frozen in the MD-11 FO seat for 2 years?

Second, this Excess Posting will be followed closely by the B-767 Vacancy Posting. If you don't feel comfortable with your position on the Virtual Training Letter which results from the Excess Posting, you can remove the FDA choice from your Standing Bid before that Vacancy Posting closes, and you will then be removed from the Virtual Training Letter and any risk that being on that list might involve. You don't have to receive a B-767 award -- you just have to take the FDA choice off your standing bid.






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Bid, posting, vacancy, excess, primary, secondary, award ... Bid to relieve, bid ot be excessed ...

So many terms, some with precise CBA definitions, and so much confusion when they are not used correctly ...

Even more confusion when our own people invent more terms ...

Call me pedantic, but I believe that sticking to the CBA language would reduce the confusion about what the CBA says. ;)


It's a Bid Award pursuant to an Excess Posting.





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You can never be forced to go to an FDA.

Yes, I feel very comfortable using the word never here.

Even with an FDA bid award, you can decline to sign the Personal Agreement. You will then be frozen in your current seat for 2 years. If you have been receiving FEPP, you will have to pay it back.

It may be a difficult choice; it is nonetheless your choice.






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FEPP is determined by Virtual Training Letters, and those will not change. Subsequent Virtual Training Letters will be created as a result of these bids, and they will go after previous Virtual Training Letters.

REAL Training Letters will also result from these bids, and will be processed in the normal order for training letters, i.e., 13-03 first, then 13-04. Those Training Letters will look at all pilots who were awarded the seats on that particular posting. For 13-03, all pilots who have HKG A300 Captain as their bids will be processed in seniority order for Bid to Relieve, and then in Inverse seniority order for Bid to Be Excessed.

Because of the methods of processing, there may be senior people who have never before bid HKG A300 Captain who will receive the seat award, while junior pilots do not receive the award but continue to receive FEPP.

That analysis is born out by previous Vacancy Postings.






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Tony,

Great info. In short, I believe you are saying there is very little risk bidding either FDA as a "bid to relieve."

1. You never have to accept the award and receive a two year seat lock. Not a big deal here for most as they are trying to keep their seat that they are in and receive FEPP.

2. If you don't like the way the award went, just change your standing bid and take the FDA out. All you have to do is wait a a very short time until the 767 bid is complete. Or hope there is another bid out soon afterward and take the FDA off your standing bid.

3. Hopefully you make captain in the type of aircraft you bid (A-300 HKG or 757 EUR) before you make it to the top of the stack.

4. You actually decide to NOT payback the money and choose to accept the bid. Not sure how long you are required to stay, but I think it's two years if you don't take the full package???

4. Worst case you pay it back. I'd suggest talking to a tax accountant if this happens, they could probably help you sort out the tax situation.


A question: Let's say you bid to relieve and your are currently a Airbus FO whose seniority will allow FEPP.

You bid:

EUR 757CA
MEM 777 FO
MEM 11 FO
MEM 300FO

Since you are in a seat with a -1, would you be awarded the 777 if you were senior enough to hold it? Or would you stay in the Airbus and hopefully receive FEPP for EUR 757CA??

I could possibly see myself taking a position in CGN if I moved up the list, but I would definitely not take the HKG award. Also, making captain in the 757 would come a lot quicker and lessen my chances of payback ever becoming a factor...

The company would have a lot more issues if they had a single pay rate. Huge training reduction (less pilots needed due to decreased training float) and drastically reduced training costs. This would end any of the passover pay issues either with training or "virtual training."

I believe that is correct also. You are the second person with I believe first hand knowledge that has told me that. Sure makes the FEPP game interesting.

FJ

If you have to repay WAGES I think you will get the taxes, social security, and all deductions back when you repay the "wages". You might have to wait until you file your taxes that year. But might be a zero cost. not sure though :eek:

"Logbook"..."we got it":)

Now I understand. You were a regional pilot.

TonyC - isn't there also the option to not repay but stop FEPP by lateral bidding on any bid? So 2 years down the line the MEM11F receiving FEPP for his FDA award bids MEM67F and gets it - FEPP stops but he owes nothing? Seems like a good gamble and pretty much a guarantee that you an hold some wide body FO down the line.

Not quite sure about this being the case, but that's how I read it from section B.3.c of the settlement agreement. If true, this really less s the risk...

I don't get the "Did the right thing" reference.

Id there some Contract Section that says someone must upgrade at the earliest opportunity? Do we really want that?

Seniority is seniority and if one wants to Stay Senior for QOL and that affords a more Junior Pilot an opportunity to take the Upgrade for $$ over QOL that's all well and good. Look to other Carriers that have had it worse. When Large numbers of Aircraft are parked, Junior Folks get flushed (or Furloughed) to lower or less desirable seats and many folks must go to training involuntarily.

This should jog your memory: JL chastised the FO group a few years ago for parking in the right seat. I believe he was in favor of up or out.

He also Chastised the Captains and told us to down-bid if we didn't want to be Captains........who cares, he was Mgt.

And ultimately manipulated the system to get his and many other over 60 cronies their Left Seats back after the 60 age change........Hypocrisy at its finest.......:mad:

Would the HKG FEPP game work with an FO trying to hold on to widebody FO pay as opposed to taking a bump down to 757? In other words, a 777 FO facing downgrade to 757 bids HKG FO the same way it was described a more senior guy would bid HKG CA to roll the dice on FEPP.

Probably but you would have to bid the MD and Bus right seats too. Additionally I think you would have a much higher shot of actually being sent there as your list would not be too crowded. Besides the obvious point that if 1 guy bids out of HKG then that creates a vacancy.

True, only strength in numbers. If everyone did it, would work better.

And every captain's seat at 100%

Hey, you're only allowed to have one number 4! :D

There are two options, the Section 6 move (and there are subsets there) and the "Enhanced Option." The Section 6 move incurs a 3-year commitment; the Enhanced Option incurs a 2-year commitment.




Yes.


If you are more senior than the most most junior pilot in the EUR 757 CA seat, and you are denied the seat award because it would cause an excess, you become eligible for FEPP pursuant to the "Virtual Training Letter" method, and would begin receiving FEPP when your "Virtual Training" is complete -- regardless of whether you remain in your original seat, MEM 300 FO, or you are awarded MEM 777 FO. In other words, you can get both the actual award - MEM 777 FO - and the virtual award - EUR 757 CA - on the same Excess Posting Award.

BEWARE -- if you do NOT receive the MEM 777 FO award on the Excess posting, take it out of your standing bid before the subsequent Vacancy Posting -- the B-767 Vacancy Posting. If you receive a bid award for a lateral move on a subsequent vacancy posting, you end your eligibility for FEPP. While it is a B-767 Vacancy Posting, there is always a possibility that The Company will choose to fill Secondary Vacancies that are created by pilots filling the Primary Vacancies. If a bunch of B-777 FOs decide they want to be B-767 FOs, they could create a B-777 FO Secondary Vacancy, you could receive that bid award, and your FEPP gig would be up.






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"You have the aircraft." ;)






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There are several ways to end FEPP, and only 3 require repayment.

A lateral bid does indeed end FEPP, and it does not require repayment. A down bid ends FEPP and requires repayment.

Lateral bids and down bids have two other limitations which should also be considered. First, there is an 18-month bidding restriction which prevents you from bidding laterally or down after ITU training. If you finished MEM11F school last month, you won't be able to use this "escape" method for another 17 months.

Second, there is a 2-year seat freeze which is incurred when you make the lateral or down move. There's a 2-year seat freeze for refusing an FDA bid award, too. Depending on how the stars align, you might get to choose your own poison.

Now, you discussed this as a way to limit exposure to receiving a FDA bid award. It should also be considered when forming one's Standing Bid for the B-767 Vacancy Posting, since it constitutes a "subsequent, non-excess, vacancy posting" to the Excess Bid. If you're an MEM MD-11 FO now, you bid for FEPP, and get it, you need to make sure you don't have any other wide-body FO seat on your Standing Bid before the B-767 Vacancy Posting closes a week later. The Company may fill secondary vacancies on the B-767 Vacancy Posting, and you could wind up making a lateral move which will lock you in that seat for 2 years and immediately end your FEPP eligibility.






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It's refreshing to see people actually reading that stuff. ;)






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Technically, you would only have to bid those seats if you could hold them. If you could have held one of them at 100% and you did not bid that seat at 100%, you lose FEPP eligibility. If you could not have held them anyway, they don't have to be on your standing bid.


Nobody can bid out of HKG on this Excess Posting. Since there is no Excess in HKG, they are not eligible to bid.

The B-767 Vacancy Posting will be different. There may be some interest in moving from HKG to the B-767, and there may be some Secondary Vacancies which are filled.

That said ... OPINION ONLY HERE, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK: I doubt you'll see many guys bidding out of HKG.






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Not exactly for the specific question asked. In order to generate FEPP for HKG FO, he only has to bid all the wide-body FO seats that he could hold at 100%, and any higher-paying seat that he could hold at 100%. If he can't hold a Captain seat, he doesn't have to have it on his standing bid.


Technicality notwithstanding, it's probably a pretty smart, safe, conservative course to bid all the captains' seats at 100%, just in case. Funny things seem to happen between practice bids and real bids. :o






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There are 2 bids open and only one is an excess. Additionally there are a lot of HKG F/O now that should be eligible to bid to leave at anytime, ys I know it is 1 year lead time, but that does not mean the company wouldn't look to front load hkg F/O particularly if the have to plus Captains to trim the FEPP list.

And yet ... they are being processed and handled seperately. When the Excess Posting closes, the rules governing Excess Postings will dictate the outcome. When the Vacancy Posting closes, the outcome of the Excess Posting and the rules governing Vacancy Postings will dictate the outcome.

It should be interesting to see how they treat the first Vacancy Posting Practice Bid. Will they pretend that the Excess Posting Practice Bid results are final, and use that to process the Vacancy Posting Practice Bid? If so, why couldn't they use that method to have a single posting with vacancies and excesses?

Time will tell.


The FOs with 3 years under their belts have already passed up opportunities to bid out of Hong Kong, but elected to stay. That said, past performance is no guarantee of future bidding behavior.

It's all part of the "Building Morale Through Uncertainty" paradigm.






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A lot of words to say that you agree that my advice about bidding HKG F/O and expecting passover is a very long shot, right. ;)

Tony- practice bid for vacancy bid 13-04 is after the final bid of 13-03 - shouldn't be any conflicts.