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Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 1428267)
Personal travel in flight deck jumpseats -- that's the topic.
121.547 (c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except— (3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate; |
Originally Posted by FlyerOnWall
(Post 1428298)
I think it's very clear. 121.547 (c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except— (3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate; In determining who can be granted access to the flight deck, § 121.547(c) is irrelevant. That paragraph only explains which of the persons permitted under § 121.547(a) must also have a seat available in the passenger compartment. We don't have a passenger compartment. Even our FOM states clearly that in Paragraph 2.93 "CARRIAGE OF PERSONS ON CARGO AIRCRAFT." (Upper right-hand corner of page 2-36) Two Federal Aviation Regulations govern who may be carried on [Company] aircraft. FAR 121.547 (a) and (b) outline those individuals who may occupy a jumpseat in the cockpit/flight deck. Section (c) of this regulation is not applicable to cargo aircraft. . |
Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 1428312)
That paragraph has been previously discussed in this thread.
In determining who can be granted access to the flight deck, § 121.547(c) is irrelevant. That paragraph only explains which of the persons permitted under § 121.547(a) must also have a seat available in the passenger compartment. We don't have a passenger compartment. Even our FOM states clearly that in Paragraph 2.93 "CARRIAGE OF PERSONS ON CARGO AIRCRAFT." (Upper right-hand corner of page 2-36) Two Federal Aviation Regulations govern .who may be carried on [Company] aircraft. FAR 121.547 (a) and (b) outline those individuals who may occupy a jumpseat in the cockpit/flight deck. Section (c) of this regulation is not applicable to cargo aircraft. I believe the company attorneys would say; you're wrong. Maybe you can explain what the word "except' means... 121.547 (c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except— (3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate; The word "except" allows for differentiation between pax and cargo. |
Originally Posted by FlyerOnWall
(Post 1428321)
You are reading into the FAR and adding your own interpretation. I believe the company attorneys would say; you're wrong. Maybe you can explain what the word "except' means... 121.547 (c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except— (3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate; The word "except" allows for differentiation between pax and cargo. Did you read the quote from the Flight Operations Manual? I hardly think the Company lawyers will disagree with their own FOM. "except" does not allow for differentiation between pax and cargo -- I have no idea where you can get that. Subparagraph (c) says that anyone admitted to the flight deck must also have a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment. "Except" means there are exceptions to this rule, i.e., some people do not need a seat available for their use in the passenger compartment. Those are listed in (1) through (6). "Except" means the passenger compartment seat requirement does not apply to everyone. It does not remove the requirements of Subparagraph (a) above. For those who are not excepted, Subparagraph (c) places an additional burden on those permitted by Subparagraph (a), not an additional allowance. Still, it doesn't even matter. It does not apply to cargo aircraft. We do not have passenger seats. We have cabin seats outside of the cockpit (in some of our airplanes). You must read the regulations in their context. . |
Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 1425381)
I would agree that an aircraft dispatcher must occupy a flight deck observer seat in order to fulfill the requirements of 14 CFR § 121.463. He needs "Operating familiarization" before he can serve as a dispatcher, and he needs 5 more hours every 12 calendar months. He can meet that requirement by occupying a flight deck observer seat, or from a forward passenger seat with headset or speaker. He can reduce the 5 hours to 2½ by substituting an additional takeoff and landing for an hour of flight (5 legs, ½ hour each). Or, he can observe 5 hours of simulator training. . a) No certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations may use any person, nor may any person serve, as an aircraft dispatcher for a particular airplane group unless that person has, with respect to an airplane of that group, satisfactorily completed the following: (2) Operating familiarization consisting of at least 5 hours observing operations under this part from the flight deck or, for airplanes without an observer seat on the flight deck, from a forward passenger seat with headset or speaker. This requirement may be reduced to a minimum of 21⁄2 hours by the substitution of one additional takeoff and landing for an hour of flight. So TonyC agrees dispatchers require a minimum 5 hours or (reduced to a minimum of 21⁄2 hours by the substitution of one additional takeoff and landing for an hour of flight.) It's just a minimum, and I think TonyC would agree that any additional experience above and beyond the minimum FAR requirements in aviation could only be beneficial to the safety of flight. After all, TonyC stated and I quote " Nothing of the above is to say that I do not benefit from every interaction I have the privilege of having with an aircraft dispatcher. I learn something every chance I get, even when they're not "observing operations" for § 121.463." The same thing goes for a dispatcher jumpseating on the flight deck. No training class, video or power-point presentation can give a dispatcher a real life training scenario that a jumpseat offers, even if they're visiting their aunt three times a year. :) |
Originally Posted by GOCKY
(Post 1428460)
TonyC forgot to quote the actual verbiage in 121.463. It states: a) No certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations may use any person, nor may any person serve, as an aircraft dispatcher for a particular airplane group unless that person has, with respect to an airplane of that group, satisfactorily completed the following: (2) Operating familiarization consisting of at least 5 hours observing operations under this part from the flight deck or, for airplanes without an observer seat on the flight deck, from a forward passenger seat with headset or speaker. This requirement may be reduced to a minimum of 21⁄2 hours by the substitution of one additional takeoff and landing for an hour of flight. So TonyC agrees dispatchers require a minimum 5 hours or (reduced to a minimum of 21⁄2 hours by the substitution of one additional takeoff and landing for an hour of flight.) It's just a minimum, and I think TonyC would agree that any additional experience above and beyond the minimum FAR requirements in aviation could only be beneficial to the safety of flight. After all, TonyC stated and I quote " Nothing of the above is to say that I do not benefit from every interaction I have the privilege of having with an aircraft dispatcher. I learn something every chance I get, even when they're not "observing operations" for § 121.463." The same thing goes for a dispatcher jumpseating on the flight deck. No training class, video or power-point presentation can give a dispatcher a real life training scenario that a jumpseat offers, even if they're visiting their aunt three times a year. :) If an aircraft dispatcher is observing operations to fulfill his Operating Familiarization requirement, he is allowed access to the flight deck under § 121.547(a)(3)(ii)(B). If he just wants to sit up there and sleep all the way to Aunt Suzie's, this paragraph does not authorize his admission to the flight deck. Y'all seem to be hung up on this concept that just because he has a dispatch certificate, he can sit up front any time he pleases. Well, that's just not so. If he's observing operations, he's authorized up front. If he's not, he's not. In the context of this thread, the more pertinent issue is the mechanic on personal travel. A dispatcher who wants to visit Aunt Suzie will simply "observe operations" in order to justify his presence on the flight deck. He can go to Aunt Suzie's every weekend that way. Mechanics won't be able to pretend they are on duty. Unless they are on-duty, § 121.547 does not permit them flight deck access. . |
Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 1428331)
Still, it doesn't even matter. It does not apply to cargo aircraft. We do not have passenger seats. We have cabin seats outside of the cockpit (in some of our airplanes).
You must read the regulations in their context.. Nowhere, does it specify passenger or cargo aircraft, it all pertains to 121. You must read the regulations in their context. |
§ 121.547(c) -- Last time
Originally Posted by FlyerOnWall
(Post 1428682)
I have, and I haven't added a twist to them like you have. Nowhere, does it specify passenger or cargo aircraft, it all pertains to 121. You must read the regulations in their context. On July 17, 2001, Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division, responded to FedEx Pilots Association's request seeking an interpretation of Section 121.583(e) ("Carriage of persons without compliance with the passenger-carrying requirements of this part.") About a year later, and after September 11, 2001, the Flight Standards branch published Flight Standards Information Bulletin for Air Transportation (FSAT) 02-06, "Restricted Access to the Flightdeck". This FSAT included at Annex 3 the July 17, 2001, legal interpretation by Assistant Chief Counsel Byrne. FSAT 02-06 was updated and incorporated in FAA Notice 8000.356, Eff. 3/16/2007, SUBJ: Access to Air Carrier Flight Decks and Revision to OpSpec A048. Finally, the original policy of FSAT 02-06, supported by the legal interpretation of FPA's October, 2000, inquiry became part of FSIMS where it is today, and from where I have cited above. Allow me to quote from that legal interpretation, FAA twists and all: Section 121.547(c) applies only to passenger- carrying operations, not all-cargo operations because Section 121.583(a) excepts all-cargo operations[1] from the requirements pertaining to passengers in Section 121.547. But it is important to note that Section 121.583(a) does not except all-cargo operations from all of the requirements of Section 121.547, but instead only excuses compliance with the requirements pertaining to passengers. Section 121.547(a) is not a requirement pertaining to “passengers”. Instead section 121.547(a) is a regulation that deals with who may be admitted onto the flight deck and -- in the circumstances relevant to this interpretation -- who has the authority and the responsibility to grant or deny permission to a person seeking admission to the flight deck. Thus, in an all-cargo operation, nothing in Section 121.583(a) excepts the applicability of Section 121.547(a) (which pertains to flight deck admissions). Instead, for all-cargo operations, Section 121.583(a) excepts the air carrier from complying with the requirements pertaining to passengers in, among other rules, Section 121.547. The requirements pertaining to passengers in Section 121.547 are contained in the introductory text of paragraph (c). Thus, for all-cargo operations (i.e., those operations in which the only people aboard the aircraft are those listed in Section 121.583(a)), the air carrier is excused from complying with the passenger requirements in Section 121.547 (i.e., those contained in the introductory text of paragraph (c) of that section). But the air carrier and others must comply with the admission-to-the-flight-deck rules in Section 121.547(a). Thus, although Section 121.547(c) does not apply to cargo-only operations conducted under part 121, Sections 121.547(a) and 121.547(b) apply to both passenger-carrying operations and all-cargo operations. In clarifying the interrelationship between section 121.547 and 121.583 and the applicability of 121.547 with respect to cargo airlines, the FAA states the following: I know that was a lot of reading, so I took the liberty of highlighting a few of the more pertinent phrases.The general purpose for section 121.547 is to set forth who may be admitted to the flight deck of any aircraft used in part 121 operations. Section 121.547(a) identifies who may be admitted to the flight deck on any aircraft used under part 121 and the minimum requirements necessary for the admission of certain people to the flight deck of any aircraft used in operations conducted under part 121. The introductory text of paragraph (c) of Section 121.547 sets forth an additional flight-deck-admission requirement for certain visitors to the flight deck. That additional requirement is that a seat must be available in the passenger compartment for certain visitors. Those certain visitors are those who are not listed in the exceptions specified in subparagraphs (1) through (6) of Section 121.547(c). If the aircraft does not have a passenger compartment or if a seat is not available in an aircraft with a passenger compartment, then only those people listed in Section 121.547(c)(1) through (6) may be admitted to the flight deck provided that such admissions are not inconsistent with the requirements of Section 121.547(a). By contrast, 121.583(a) lists numerous passenger carrying requirements that the certificate holders need not comply with to carry the persons listed in 121.583(a)(1)-(8) aboard, and obviously is limited to all-cargo operations conducted under part 121. For an all-cargo operation, an air carrier need not comply with the passenger requirements in Section 121.547 (i.e., those contained in paragraph (c)), but no person or entity, including the air carrier, is excused from the flight deck admission requirements in Sections 121.547(a) and 121.547(b). As far as § 121.547(c), that's all I got. If you have any more argument, take it up with the FAA. . |
Tony, Thanks for posting the interpretation. I think it makes it clear who CAN be admitted to the cockpit.
More important I think is that the PIC must admit the other crewmembers of the flight (121.547a1) and the FAA types (121.547a2). ANYONE else is at the PIC's discretion. No justification required. For safety the PIC can deplane the FAA types.(121.547a4 last sentence) If you read the FOM on page 2-40 you will find this at the top of the page: Jumpseat Booking Matrix Captain has final authority for any FAR 121.547 qualified individuals to ride in the cockpit. FAR 121.583 individuals are not allowed cockpit access. This matrix is a booking guide only. Just because an individual has a reservation doesn't guarantee them a ride. PIC ok is still required. Why anyone (other than our own senoirity list) can reserve a seat in the cockpit without the PIC's permission is a mystery to me. |
Originally Posted by MaxKts
(Post 1428051)
Has anyone on here stated that they feel threatened by having a mechanic on board? No one is afraid of the mechanics! What they are afraid of is the company's latest interpretation of the rules and when the FAA decides the company made a mistake - how that may effect their career!
Uhh - Are you saying we have a monopoly on arrogance :eek: |
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