Ups 2015
 

As a long time lurker and mostly non-poster here; I'am starting another year here at UPS in 2015 as an IPA pilot with the same seniority of a new hire. After waiting 9yrs at UPS to move up and out of the bottom 300 I continually ask myself when is enough, enough in this abusive relationship?

To post any of this on the IPA back slapping Bar n Grill of the same 25 captains would be considered excommunication. But, no I'am not a manager, just an extremely frustrated IPA F/O.

UPS management continually fails to address and answer the following. How many more friends will I lose to fatigue, battery fires or poor training in the coming year? What future is there here with a corrosive management culture who trains every ground bound worker to hate every airborne co-worker. When will we, if ever grow and modernize the airline?

Although I would love things to improve and turn around here at UPS in 2015, it seems to me.......it is just so much wishful thinking. The IPA has no teeth and is a lame duck proven by the perfect 2014 peak that was just pulled off by UPS.

So here is my take on what to expect in 2015. At best the continuing slow erosion of seniority, worse schedules and more new-hire managers.

Contract talks continue.....TA in sight by early 2016, but only when UPS wants something and a industry non-leading contract of 3% raise is floated about. IPA EB strongly recommends same toothless contract language in which a proverbial 747 can be flown thru.

If the Economy improves in the slightest in early 2015....."I think many here of the bottom 300 have had enough"......and bottom 300 lucky few with at least 15yrs of flying on the clock start mass exodus back to "non-trucking airlines."

Double Breasted UPS operation continues with Non-union Mangler pilots who surpass 300-400 while IPA can't even defend basic definition of a union.

Alaska ANC base closed and international operations given over to Supply-Chain-Solutions. "AKA...Kalitta, Atlas, Cathay etc...."

MD-11 fleet shrinks by half and is recalled to Domestic due to lack of maintenance and available spares.

747 fleet grounds itself due to deferred maintenance, and is not needed anyways thanks to SCS.

Union pilot list shrinks to 1,900. The 109 rallying cry, becomes just another number.

85% of next day air flights and 75% of 2nd day air flights continue on-time.......:cool:

Grow a pair and put your money where your mouth is......... Quit.

I understand some of your frustrations, but I don't see it as being THAT bad here. I kindly and sincerely invite you to leave for a legacy. After all, like you've said, they're hiring by the thousands. Maybe then you'll see that pilots of every pilot group ***** about the same things ($, QOL, scheduling, contracts, etc). Us at UPS and FDX also share the added burden of increased safety hazards which should demand a premium in pay (IMHO). But if you think the grass is really greener then by all means please do us both a favor and go somewhere else. Lord knows my seniority could use a bump, even if it's only by 1 number.

MasterCaution,
I'll give you the phone number of my buddy's at American Airlines who were hired in 1990, Thats 25 years ago and who just upgraded to Captain in 2011 (767) , then back to F/O in 2012 then back to Captain in 2013 (737) only to be making $12 more an hour than a UPS First Officer. Oh, I forgot, He lost his retirement and has only 1/2 of what I have as a UPS 1995 hire in his pension fund, and ZERO A Plan.....Things will improve, just have to be patient. There are BILLIONS of people all over the world who never bought anything online or even own a computer..we have to grow soon.

First of all, if you have been here 9 years, you are not in the bottom 300. Second of all, I bet you are a real joy to fly with. Third, if you are truly that unhappy here, QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU only get one shot at this life, find something else to do that makes you happy.

I've been here 9.5 years and even though my QOL could be better, as a commuter, it ain't that bad. I do my ****ing job, go home and get to spend quality time with my family.

How many Union meetings have you attended? Have you ever thought about getting involved? Or are you one of "those" guys who are always a victim of big ole UPS, but never one who wants to be part of the solution. Have you seen how happy our brothers are at FedEx? You don't think they have some of the same issues we have??
Delta, United, American???? Things may be great now, but wait for the next recession! See how those guys get raked over the coals.

UPS obviously has continued and will continue to make this job as hard as possible. Don't think for a second that as soon as UPS does not need you, they will get rid of you. But guess what, so will every other airline in the world. If you really think the grass in greener on the other side, make the leap and find out!

A serious question. How great would this place be without conflict bidding and A plan. I think most would change their tune about how great a place this is no matter what year your hired.

Quit belittling people for their frustration, thats what the Bar and grill is for.

One huge factor about choosing the Pax airlines over UPS is all you need is another crackpot terrorist or home-grown psycho to cause an incident and half the sheep in the country won't fly for a year or two...all the retirements in the world can't off-set that situation..food for thought. People will still buy tons of stuff on the internet!

Good post. I agree with almost everything.

One other point for me, is that I've never once done this mythical conflict bidding. People always talk about it, but I've never gotten more than a day or two off. Conflict bidding is a myth for junior pilots 06-07.

How ****ty do think this place would be without the IPA???? Nobody is being belittled here. Sometimes you read someones PUBLIC post and get the feeling that maybe UPS is not place for some people. My advice, life is short, find a new job that makes you happy. I have not heard of many people that think UPS is a great place. I surely don't! But I am not miserable and don't think things are great at ANY of the legacy carriers. Too many people here want this place to be some sort of social club where management guys are your buddies, that they actually care about you and your family. Expectation Zero! Remember that and you will do just fine. Come to work, fly your trip, go home and collect your check. If you are too tired, call in fatigued.

Well hopefully this has all been cathartic...

Rumors of Delta hiring between 1200-1500 in 2015, with United and American not too far behind in numbers. Go get your seniority number TODAY,and YOU TOO can ride a wave of retirements, go work for a "real" airline, and feel the sweet relief of a pardon from brown handcuffs.

Or, ya know, keep *****ing on APC - whatever works for you.

They won't leave. They don't have the balls to leave a $170/hr job.

Thanks to everyone who's first knee jerk response and slightest critisim about the IPA and UPS is always, quit!

And no i don't **tch the whole time I fly because I'm too busy worrying about batteries torching off, and conserving energy while fighting fatigue to waste energy on talk.

My post is about it being *****ing 2015! And someone who has been at UPS for 9years has only gone backwards on the seniority list as managers continue to get hired straight to the captain seat. The same junior pilots on the seniority list keep getting hammered whi by the way are also working under the same contract they were hired under and didn't get to vote on

I won't have to quit. My feeling is the junior 300 UPS job isn't going to be here in 5 years.

I guess a Bar and Grill mole is here.

The junior pilot signing bonus (bribe) is the reason it passed.

This time UPS will offer PBS to the junior pilots with w/ a no furlough clause. My schedule would get a lot better with PBS. That is their plan.

Exactomundo!!!!

Then they ship on UPS....which will promptly put it on a Boeing 747-8 owned and operated by:


------------Airlines
------------Airlines
------------Airlines
------------Airlines
------------Airlines

Don't kid yourself Vito, they have not stopped growing their business, just that the IPA hasn't seen any of it.

Our scope clause is a good...but is it enforceable? It is evident that it is not...no chance ever when we are dealing with thug types at UPS.

I'm senior in my seat. I'd love to be able to make my own schedule. Bring it on!

I'd be up for learning more about PBS too. My schedule and quality of life can't get any worse than it is now.

What is the point of being personally insulting to someone who is fed up after nine years of being extremely junior? Of course he is sick of it, and I'll bet many people in his shoes feel exactly the same way.

And telling someone to quit and just go out and get another job? Yeah right, as if it was only so easy. Everyone out there is fighting just to get called for an interview.

Shack! Its easier to cut someone down then to admit we have serious problems I guess, as long as your a senior Captain making 350+ a year and working less than ten days a month then I guess life is good!

Nothing insulting whatsoever about kindly offering them an alternative option. If he's sick of his seniority position after 9 years then the alternative is to get hired by a legacy and he'll have 3 times as many pilots junior to him after 1 year than he has now at UPS after 9 years. The point is that no job is perfect. We DEFINITELY have our issues just like everyone else. I'm one of the most junior pilots at UPS and I've worked at a legacy ALPA carrier and EVERY pilot group has their issues. Does it **** me off that UPS hires direct entry CA's? ABSOLUTELY!!!! Do I want better & safer schedules? ABSOLUTELY! Lithium batter carriage restrictions? ABSOLUTELY! These and other issues brought up are certainly important to us at UPS. If given the choice, however, between having an ALPA MEC fight the company for me or the IPA, I'd choose the IPA 1,000 times out of 1,000. No, they're not perfect, but neither is any other union and especially those that are nationally represented. One thing I do know is that PBS is a no go for me and it should be for all of us. It only benefits the company and I think we all agree that the company gets enough out of us as it is. The best thing our pilot group can do is to be patient and remain UNITED. It benefits us if AA and DAL get their contract first. What we do is more dangerous on many levels (not a shot a PAX carriers, just my opinion) and we can use those contracts for leverage. For those reasons I'll remain united with my IPA brothers and sisters, be patient, and let my EB speak for me.

I understand the frustrations as I share many of them as well but there are other options if you truly can't take it here anymore. Just remember, the grass is never greener, only a little browner.

Cheers!

I don't really think anyone is being insulted. I also not not heard anyone here say there are no problems at UPS. We have MAJOR issues here right now that need serious attention. Things are going to get a lot worse here until we get a better contract. I do believe this pilot group will see to it, to vote on something that improves our QOL in a major way.

I also believe UPS is not for everyone. I keep hearing how great Delta, United, SW, AA and others are, and that's great, but then I'll ask if they have applied and the answer is almost always no. It may be hard to get on at Delta, but you never know if you never apply.

I'm not a senior Captain that makes 350k. Been here 9.5 years, summer vacation, good pay and benefits, many fatigue calls, no sick check in Jan. and I think this is an OK place to work if you expect ZERO from the company.

"Nothing insulting whatsoever about kindly offering them an alternative option."

Nah, have to disagree with you there, unless you are a hiring manager for another airline, offering him an interview. But if you're another pilot with nothing to offer but the advice of, "If you don't like it, quit and go elsewhere," you're really just telling someone to take their complaints and stick them up their a$$. :cool:

For many people, unfortunately, there isn't anywhere else to go. Too few jobs, too many pilots. Many of us wouldn't even get a job at our current airline, if we had to interview again, right now. We probably wouldn't even get the call.

You had me until I saw Go Cats.:(

Senior copilot is pretty good too!

Don't agree. Like I said before, I have personally talked to several junior FO's about this and ever time I ask if they have applied somewhere else, they say NO. How do you know you can't get a job somewhere else if you don't try. I can't say for sure, but I may have tried to leave this place if I had been screwed around with like the bottom 300. The key word in try.

I'm not even top 100 on my seat. Would not even be called close to senior.

I don't believe your buddy lost his pension, did he? I thought the defined benefit was "frozen"?

I recall the PBGC making a "stand" about American wanting to dump the A plan and they backed off. Of course your buddy's A plan was certainly impacted, no argument there.

Or am I wrong? I'll admit I was wrong . . . . once. (Unless you ask my wife).

haha. Fair enough

109% IPA

PBS has some great potential "IF" it is written with proper rules. Rules that UPS would never agree to. With or without those rules PBS stands a zero chance of getting ratified here. UPS has only themselves to blame for that.

I agree. Look at what they've done with our trip trade system and there's your answer on how bad PBS will be. Having used PBS at a legacy, we don't want it here.

I find it interesting that people say they won't post on the B&G, using their real names, fearing that they will be ridiculed. I've spoken out against stuff there, but have always been treated with respect. Show your true stones there, and then I'll listen to what some of these posts are about. Until then, keep typing...

Has PBS actually been mentioned at the table by your company yet?

We've been told it hasn't. They don't need it anymore considering the percentage of conflict they're able to recover these days.

Not true at all for me. I'm a Jan 2007 hire (in the bottom 300), I commute to ANC, and I conflict bid on at least half of our bids. Case in point: this bid period I had one week of vacation in January that I conflicted...now I've got three weeks off in January...no backfill.

Same thing happened last summer, but I had two weeks of vacation to conflict. I touched three trips on my vacation weeks, and I didn't work the whole bid period. Luckily I had CQ6 at the start of the new bid period, or I was about to go uncurrent on landings. I'm not making this stuff up to try to make the company look good, I'm just telling the truth.

I'm a serial VTO bidder that usually ends up in the bottom half of the VTO bid crowd.

Personally, I would never go back to my legacy (Delta, Aug 2000 hire). I have much more time off here, and I make a lot more money. I remember PBS being horrible for my QOL. 4 days on, 3 days off on reserve, and one week of vacation = one week off, that's it. In my entire 6 years at Delta, I don't think I ever had two weeks off in a row. I did however have plenty of 5 leg days on the MD-88 out of ATL. Trust me...the grass isn't always greener.

I'm no Brown company cheerleader, but some of the stuff I read here is just plain over the top. You can make a lot of money here, and have a lot more time off than you do at any legacy, if you're a smart bidder (even if you're junior).

Well said!

11-11-14
EB Rumor Control: Unity Requires Facts, Not Rumors

Q: Is progress being made in negotiations?
A:Yes. Slow but steady progress is being made at the negotiation table. Bringing appropriate pressures to bear on management to negotiate in good faith takes time. But, under the supervision and control of the federal mediator, we are breaking through significant barriers.

Q: Is the Company refusing to negotiate scheduling due to IPA's lawsuit over Part 117?
A: No, the mediator put an end to the Company's refusal to negotiate scheduling. We are now deep into negotiating provisions of Article 13. With the number of issues being presented by IPA, meticulously working through these details will take time and our approach is to address each issue carefully, piece-by-piece.

Q: Does the IPA's lawsuit against the FAA concerning Part 117 strengthen our position in contract negotiations?
A: Yes. The IPA's lawsuit and legislative efforts are keeping the focus on UPS's irrational insistence that it be allowed to operate outside of a national (FAR Part 117) safety standard. Spotlighting UPS's irrational "a pilot is not a pilot" position translates into more support for the IPA as we seek to bring common sense scheduling rule changes through our contract, as well as through law.

Q:What if the FAA rules that cargo operators will continue to be "carved-out" of Part 117?
A: : An FAA ruling that cargo operators will continue to be carved-out would not be a surprise. Such a ruling would add even more pressure on UPS to address its scheduling and safety culture practices through negotiations by writing new rules into the collective bargaining agreement. Also, the courts, not the FAA, will have the final say on whether or not the FAA had the authority to exclude cargo carriers from the new FARs in the first place.

Q: With regard to our negotiations, will the IPA agree to institute PBS?
A: No. No member of the EB or the IPA Negotiating Team will allow UPS to institute PBS. The Association's biggest priorities in negotiations are scheduling and quality of life. PBS would represent a step backward and the IPA will not agree to it.

Q: Will the IPA increase the normal retirement age to 65 and freeze the A Plan?
A: No. The IPA will not allow an increase in the normal retirement age, and there will be no "freeze" of the A Plan. Based on membership surveys, we are committed to increasing retirement benefits for IPA members, not reducing them.

Q: Is General Counsel Bill Trent being paid over a $100K per month in salary?
A: No. Trent's salary is based on UPS Captain's pay and has not changed. The EB restructured the original employment agreement last year to bring Trent's retirement benefits equal to that of a UPS Captain. Department of Labor LM-2 rules require that Trent's regular salary be combined with the pension payments and placed on the form as one total. Last year’s restructuring was outlined to the membership in a detailed message in February which is archived in the Library Section of the IPA website. Not shown on the LM-2 is the $8 million in liabilities that were subtracted (removed) from the IPA's balance sheet as a result of amending the employment agreement, including elimination of the original agreement's “golden parachute" provision.

Q: Are other attorneys assisting Trent during negotiations?
A: Yes. In addition to the IPA's two staff attorneys, Trent is assisted by Krista Fogelman of Washington DC. Fogelman specializes in ERISA law which covers the area of pension and health care benefits. Also involved is Arthur Luby. Luby, currently with ALPA, advises the Association on issues particularly related to scope as he has since 1991. Backing up our legal team as necessary in other specialized areas is Erick Pilsk of the Washington DC law firm of Kaplan, Kirsch, and Rockwell; Kathleen Yodice of Yodice Associates, Frederick MD; and William Wilder of the Washington DC firm of Baptiste & Wilder.

Q: I've heard rumors that the IPA will conduct informational picketing this week. Is the pilot group expected to turn out in large numbers for this event?
A: No. A group of IPA volunteers has been organized to conduct informational picketing in New York City to a targeted audience later this week. More information will be released on Thursday in conjunction with the event.

Q: There is a rumor that UPS is attempting to reduce the number of recurrent training days on some fleets, is this true?
A:Yes, some in management are advocating a reduction in recurrent training days. The IPA has been on record with the FAA since 2011 outlining the need for more, not less training. Recent aircraft events have since reinforced the Association’s message, and the IPA will oppose any attempt to remove days from recurrent training.

I suppose you are right. You don't know if you'll get hired elsewhere if you don't even put in the application.

However, it would be pretty hard to leave after nine years in towards retirement. The majors are just starting to hire now, do you trade being about to retire in 11 or 16 years (or whatever your system allows) to an unknown of being on the bottom of the seniority list again? What if you're older and you have to retire earlier? It is very difficult to leave what appears to be a secure job for the unknown.

I think the only way I could leave is if I truly hated what I was doing, and absolutely hated the company I was working for. Otherwise, I'd probably suck it up and just try to make it until retirement.

MasterCard. Please Stay! To neutralize these big time wusses on this board! And I've been here for over 20 years, and have never made any where close to $300K! Let alone $350 numbers some idiots are throwing around here. And I've been a CA for 8 years.

And I agree, our Union is Toothless. Even with Bob T. in charge.

I have very close friends at AA, DL, and UAL. And a five leg day is extremely rare!! more like 2 or 3 legs. Can't stand the blowhards here that stretch the truth to make it better than it is. UPS Blows. Admit it. Night Time sort, going to Alaska to start a Trip, awesome!! Idiots.