Captain to FE - Overnight
 

I work on the ramp, loading and un-loading purple planes at night. I see a nice spread of ages among the pilots. I even remember talking to -10 FE one night while he was getting things ready up-front. He was indeed an older gentleman, and said that he used to fly in the left seat; yet now because he was over 60, he was on the panel. I don't remember looking at his stripes, so my question is this: is he still a Captain or do they take away his stripe? Does he now go from Captain pay back to wide-body FE pay? I had respect for this man, yet it must be strange to one day be the leader of the ship, and the next day being the guy in the back.

Thanks

Yes you go from 4 to 3 stripes and yes you go from captains pay to FE pay. With proper planning though, especailly being @ FDX, and with the new contract I am not sure why he just doesn't retire...but that is a whole new thread:confused:

Hey thanks! I would think that they would let him keep his stripes and pay, I mean he earned it. My .02

Well, since you asked, there could be a hundred reasons why he (we) decide to go from the left seat (or right seat, for that matter) to the back seat.

1. Poor financial planning
2. Supporting his previous 3 or 4 wives and their homes
3. Wanting to stay "connected" to his previous life of 30 years
4. He feels too young to retire
5. Likes to visit friends/places around the country
6. Hopes to get back in the left seat with the Age 60 rule change
7. Still feels he has something to offer
8. Enjoys the lifestyle he has become accustomed to (being on the road)
9. Likes the smell of jet fuel in the morning
10 Because the Company allows him to stay
11-100 And any number of other personal reasons that are none of your business.

Although once a captain, always a captain, I do wholeheartedly agree with Jack Lewis' dictate to wear the stripes of the seat that you are occupying. It's purpose, I'm sure, is to eliminate confusion. Not within the cockpit, but between ground personnel and crewmembers. After all, if you walked in and saw this distinguished, older guy and two young snot-nosed kids;) , whom would you assume to be the captain? So wearing the 3 stripes helps eliminate those types of issues, and I'm all for that.

As for the pay. Same thing. You should get paid for the job that you do. Plain and simple.

The bottom line (IMHO) is this: guys go to the back seat for any number of reasons. All personal. If they do a good job, great! If they do a crappy job, then they should be somewhere else. Just like any other guy flying an aircraft. If you don't like it...tough, they didn't make the rule, they are just living by it. If it effects your quality of life, live with it. You'll probably have the same capability at some point in your career, if you decide to exercise it. In the meantime, you might think about the fact that if not for that guy, you might not be where you are now. As an example, if not for the original guys shelling out of their own pockets for gas, this company might not even be in existence now.

I like # 9:D, thanks for your in-put, and yes I have heard about the Falcon drivers back in the early days that would put the fuel bill on thier personal credit cards in order to help the struggling company along. I agree that if those guys had not done that, then the company would likely not be here, so my hat goes off to em'. I'm sure those guys are now well taken care of, as well they should be.

At UPS, the over 60 ex-Capts wear 3 stripes on the shoulder boards but are allowed to wear their Capt's wings on their shirt and hat without the braids. The wings represent the level they achieved and earned throughout their years of service and the stripes represent their current position.

ABK

We also have retired military guys who got hired after they were 45. Some of them may want to work a year or two to hit 15 years on the pension plan.

Lag

Forgot #101 - Good old American greed.

Along with the ex-military guys who came to FedEx (and UPS, and every other airline) after their military career, we have other guys who came here from other occupations, and who are trying to either get a high 5 (years of pay) for retirement, or to increase their years of service. The other way to maximize retirement pay is to get the number of years up. If a guy turns 60 with (say) 12 years of FedEx service, his retirement pay is 24% of the average of his highest 5 years. If he goes to the back seat for (say) 3 years, his retirement pay would be 30%. In other words, he gets an additional 2% for each year he stays on.... up to 25 years or 50% of his high 5.

I didn't forget #101 - Greed. There's probably that too. Or #102 - The "I'm gonna stay right here until they have to bury me, because I died in the seat." Or #103, The "I'm staying here to screw someone else out of a seniority number." I agree, it takes all kinds, but it's not for you to tell someone to leave, because you don't know why they're staying in the first place. As well, all you've earned the right to do is ***** about it.

#104 - "Learn to fish? Think of all the fish I can buy with the extra $20K-$25K over retirement pay!" :rolleyes:

just for fun next time you are flying a night turn or night flight- and have the opportunity to fly with one of the over 60 folks (or even one that is really hoping for a rule change) talk to him or her.

it's kinda funny. it's like talking to your grandpa after the hours of say 6:00 pm- the body starts shutting down.

flew with a guy, a well seasoned guy, the other night and was talking with him then silence- right in the middle of his sentence-looked over and ta-daa- out like a light.

i think he was trying to mumble something about the rule being about safety and unfair. message received.

So you are saying that you have never nodded off during a night flight? Really? Years ago I was flying with one of our MD-11 captains, who at the time was a f/o in the Boeing. We were doing MHT.IND.MHT, week-on/week-off double deadheads. The only approach up there at the time was the ILS, landing to the North. His leg, 6 miles or so out on the localizer, and I watch him doing the old chin bob. You guessed it... he had fallen asleep, on his leg, 5 miles from landing. I should have let him sleep, the landing would have been better than most of his other ones. ;) This can happen to any of us at any time. Because you're not "old" yet, don't even for a moment, think it can't happen to you. As for me, you can't talk to me at 6PM on layovers, because I'm still out playing racquetball and won't be back to the hotel until about an hour prior to show.

R-Ball
 

I was going to say Jet-Jok.....somewhere on the list "is some guys just don't like playing Ball at home". But I gotta say seriously, you are far too awake at O-dark thirty than anybody over or under sixty. You are the exception that proves the rule.......Now stay outta my seat!----please?!

Too cold for the 912 on this layover....I'll let you know when I pull the trigger on the cobra.
Ciao:cool:

I hear that. If I even get close to brown airplane I start to fall asleep, amd I'm nowhere close to 60:D

It's not the time of day or night, it's the uniform:rolleyes:that makes you fall asleep!

SO. . . just how often do pilots fall asleep? How is that looked upon by other crew members?

when youre on your 5th night of 14 hour nights, you dont sleep, you just rest your eyes a little.

ahh . . . I see

When I was on the Mad Dog, part of my briefing was "No secret sleeping and no secret typing." It usually worked.....sometimes

I don't mind it, as long as I'm not already checking my eyelids for holes!

Very well stated. I am glad that you made that post.

Well then, about how old is the oldest FE? I know that one must be able to continue to pass that first class medical, I figure that one could be able to do this for sometime after the 60-go to the back- threshold.

I have flown with FEs around 73? I don't think there is a requirement to maintain a first class medical. Only a second class

We had an FE here at FedEx that flew P-40s in WWII. (E.W.) He retired a few years back. He was close to 80 I think, might even have been 80.
BTW FO's and FE's perrFAA standards only need a 2nd class.
Some company's require 1st class but that is a company thing.
FO's who perform RFO (Cruise CAPT) duties require a 1st class.

He didn't retire! He wandered off during a night pre-flight and has not been seen since.:D Just a little Over-60 humor. In my opinion, he was quite over the top. The idea, in my mind anyway, is to work until you don't need to anymore, then stop and smell the flowers. That said, imagine the stories that came out of him, when he was awake, of course. I hope he is out chasing girls on the beach in Miami. His son is still here and a well-respected captain.

I have heard about the Falcon drivers back in the early days that would put the fuel bill on thier personal credit cards in order to help the struggling company along.

I met the individual you are speaking of back in 1997, just before his retirement. He is the only one I've ever heard of who used a personal credit card...there was an article in the Commercial Appeal about it.
If you think about the political atmosphere concerning unions during his era, and then consider the fact that he was working in the Union office and holding a leadership position when I met him, you can get a pretty good idea of how much he thought the company appreciated or remembered his efforts from previous decades.

Maybe they didn't do it because they "loved" the company. Maybe they did it because they saw the potential and believed that with a little help, the thing could grow. Fred Smith is not the only visionary amongst FedEx people. Actually, it doesn't matter what their motive was, the fact that it was done is something that we should all be happy about. No one ever said the company would love you or appreciate you, just that you'd get a good days pay for a good days work. No more and no less. It's like the guy who invented the wheel. We all have to thank him, because without him, there'd be no beer truck.:)

We don't sleep....we check the side window for cracks...

Seriously,

A few winks during cruise is worth its weight in gold come approach time. I have no problem with someone needing "a little time to themselves" as long as it is talked about.....besides, it's quieter that way when I'm reading my book!

:)

I will take the crusty more mature backseater that I can count on come approach time vs the twenty something backseater while on a no kidding 600rvr approach into LAX who at the 500' gpws call is writing a letter to her boyfriend while looking sideways........

I've got to give credit to the F/O's. They always come really well rested and prepared to fly.

At the top of climb I always ask them first if they are tired and want to close their eyes for a few. 99% of them always say "I'm doing good, not tired at all!"

So I close my eyes for a nap knowing how high quality the FDX F/O's are! :)

Past...

So did you just let her continue writing? And how did you get to 500' and not realize your FE was not into the fight?

Yea, but that guy has a big chip on his shoulder and is in thereapy now!;)

http://adweek.blogs.com/photos/uncat.../caveman_1.jpg

Hmmmm, is there a story here?:eek:

Once heard from a CA while I was on the jumpseat:

Yea, I can finally hold Atlanta CA, but it will be years before I can hold LAX FE

Yeah the napping in the airplane thing has always been a hot item, not to mention illegal per the feds (although I have not found it written anywhere.) Can anyone point us to FAR XXX.XXX or OPS Scec whatever that says sleeping in the cockpit is not allowed and will result in severe disciplinary action up to and including termination and the loss of your license?

However, and not that I would know anything about it, but it seems that a controlled (read, mutually agreed upon with all crewmembers) 20 minute nap at altitude would make for a much safer approach and landing. NASA thinks so, but what do I know I just fly night freight for a living..........

so, besides sleepin, err examing the back of the eye-lids, what else do you guys do while plugging away at the night sky? Lap-tops? Books? 99 bottles of beer on the wall? 21 questions? . . .

Same thing we see you-all do on the tug evernight.............;)

and what would that be? At least you have a door for privacy and a windshield in your cockpit, we roll old school, open cockpit :D

I prefer comic books. And, if it's such a long leg that I've read all of them...I like to practice my yodeling. There's nothing like a good yodeling duet at 35,000. Especially, with an open mike at 0430.

And, then I study the FOM for the remainder of the flight.

I thought I'd add my .02 about retirement in general. My first six months with Delta I was on reserve when we were hiring like gangbusters (60/month) was on reserve and never got called - I had enough money, wasn't working and hated it. If a guy is physically capable, can pass the physical, and wants to keep working he should. I have flown with 50 something Captains that couldn't see over their bellies, fell asleep during cruise (every leg) and really had no business flying. On the other hand, I know some 60 and 70 year olds sharper than most of us. I don't ever plan to retire because that is the quickest way to dig your own grave. I would like the "option" to fly past 60 (I'm only 49) and when I get there be able to make the decision. Everyone here should have the same option and you can plan ahead.