Delta TA in six months, Fedex 5 years, nada
 

Was reading Delta threads and it looks like they have a TA on the table and the reps will vote on it within a week. Hopefully it is a strong contract. We have been going on forever and FedEx management is still stalling. Maybe this will help them along. Contract NOW that respects our hard work for FedEx!

Our MEC says it took a year but I'm a FNG. Just an FYI and am certainly not trying to undersell your valid point. Good luck.


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Keep in mind, they don't know yet if it's a "good" TA. there are lots of rumors of QOL concessions and productivity wins (for the company obviously) in the DAL contract threads.

Yeah, we'd have a TA a long time ago if DW and BC were still handling things. But it would contain PBS and every other concessionairy change the company wanted in exchange for hourly raises.

The length of time ours is taking and the fact MANAGEMENT was the one who went crying to the NMB tells me that for once our union is saying NO to their ridiculous proposals and finally demanding what we are worth.

I think you really mean ...in exchange for DW and BC getting a really big pay raise for themselves!*? Shhhhhhh ... and sell the 757 guys down the river in exchange for OUR really big raise

Or ... PC trying to convince us the FPA TA wasn't really as bad as it seemed? We now know what PC got out of the deal, seems like there should be laws against that?

There, I fixed that for you ...


:confused:

Full Retro!!! to the penny! No Signing Bonus. This will help for future delay tactics. Actually, the Delay may help this time.

You do know that MANAGEMENT was the one that went crying to the NMB last time(2006), right?:confused:

Every contract we have had here has been at best cost neutral.

Impasse! Release! ASAP!

I know this is a FedEx board, but you could include UPS in the title also.

Delta will have two contracts in the time both our groups have been negotiating.

Delta has a T/A 7 months before amendable date and how many years past the amendable date are we? Makes me want to go the extra mile for the company. Stop $&@king with us and give us the contract we deserve!

Maybe because Delta value their employees and treats them like assets rather than asses.

Guys, guys...please! Wouldn't your time be better spent with some well thought out feedback for how they could fix the latest
Hong Kong mess?
Wildmanny (Heavy sarcasm alert!)

For the next week, its time to sit back, wind the watch, let the Delta TA become public, than wait a little longer ;) and see what both our MEC and Fedex management have to say about our own section 6 progress. My guess, if the DAL TA is substantially better than what Fedex thinks we should get, you can expect a replay of the play book pre 9/11 about how we are can't be compared to "real" airline pilots, ala 2006.
Fedex really miscalculated not getting us signed up 2 years ago. Now the real test is wether it really matters. :confused: Will future Red Letters make us cower, like last time, or just stiffen our resolve.
Expect some serious spin related to PBS and their TA, as I would assume they will still have it as part of their TA. Stay tuned, stay informed, and don't do anything stupid. Time now to think, not get emotional. :D

Define "retro".

Yet the boxes keep moving on time. Where is the incentive for management to settle?

Remember that many Pilots here at FedEx were angry when we got the Bridge contract in 2011 which was close to our amendable date.

Let's wait to see the Details of the Delta TA, i.e. Pay, work rules, benefits and Scope.

I truly hope it is all big gains for them.

Angry is a bit perjorative, perhaps one could say we had higher expectations or remarkable foresight. :rolleyes:

LAG, I was simply pointing out that......

many are now lauding Delta for Negotiating a TA before their Amendable date without actually knowing what they really achieved.

Also pointing out that our Last Deal here at FedEx was also signed at the Amendable Date.

Im not going to argue the Merits, as it doesn't matter at this point.
That being said, the Negotiating environment in 2011 was not nearly as good for us as it is now.

Hopefully the Delta Pilots achieved some big gains which can only
make our case better.

No problems, I was happy with timing of our interim deal, just underwhelmed with the content. So I certainly agree with the intent of your post and certainly hope or next deal rewards our patience.

Ditto mi amigo

Maybe I'm having memory problems? Wasn't the "Bridge" contract sold to the membership as an avenue to expedited Contract Negotiations?

Wasn't it a fix for Management's FDA problems?

How'd that work out for us?


:eek:

UPS guy here. I have to say though that our (cargo pilot) rates are not tied to the pax guys. Our job is substantially more dangerous than theirs and we are quite more productive than they are. (No slam intended, just saying NDA envelopes are more profitable than people).

FDX and even UPS are making gobs of money from their respective airlines. The Delta rates aren't our benchmark.

They do inform the negotiating environment, though, and would seem to set a minimum bar for the "more productive" pilots in the cargo industry. Of course, hourly rates are just one part of compensation.

Mark


Not to beat a Dead horse but,

I'm not sure what the real FDA problem Fix was for MGT as we already had previously signed an FDA LOA. Yes the Bridge improved FDA bennies but not massively.

As has already been proven, The Company had/has no real trouble filling New Hire FO slots in both FDA's and they still don't. Would they have trouble filling New hire Captain Slots if ALPA would have played Hard ball.

As to the "Bridge". No matter how one slices and dices it or spins it, it was a Brand New contract. True, it was not much more an 1 year extension with an option for 2 and a status quo plus a 3% pay raise with a few extra bennies here and there.
But the fact is, it was a brand New Valid RLA Contract with a new amendable date.

I know I know, the hope was that we would have a new Contract at the Amendable date of the "Bridge" FEB 2013 but that certainly didn't happen.

I know there are many Pro /Con arguments.

A Fact is that 2011 wasn't the best Negotiating environment from the Pilot perspective. We were the Top of the industry and we were basically the only ones hiring and at that time FDX was most Pilots 1st choice.

Snap shot today. Consolidation, Better economy, Low Fuel and now all the BIG 3 are hiring. AAL has basically completed the Merger with USAIRWAYS. Everyone is profitable and now our pay rates are not the top anymore.

I'm not a psychic and I have no idea how all this will play out.

Had we elected not to sign the Bridge and continue in Full Section 6 in 2011-12, it is anyones guess as to when we would have inked a 4-5 year deal. If we had inked a deal in late 2011 or 2012, would it have been Top of the industry now? If it would have been a 5 year deal in 2012 and we then watch AA and DELTA surpass us and we had 4 more years before Openers in 2017, how would everyone have felt at this time? Figuring at least 2-3 years in Full Section 6 new contract in 2019-20.

Now that AA and Delta have higher rates Management knows we will not settle for anything less than they have. In fact will we settle for anything less than Delta Plus a nickel? I hope not.

Now, we at least have a target that Management and the NMB mediator cannot ignore. We do not even know what the New Delta pay rates are yet.

Again, I cannot predict how this will all shake out. I have no clue what we will settle for. I hope everyone still has their sights high.

I do know that presently, we are in a much stronger position to demand what we want or deserve , much more so than we were in 2011-2012.

I suspect we will know in the coming months.

In the mean time, it is up to 4200 Pilots to tell Management we deserve more.

The Company could not open an FDA in Germany without a mechanism to force pilots out before the 5-year point when they would be required to participate in Germany's social security program.

The "Bridge Contract" gave them that mechanism.


That was one of my many points of opposition.





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Huh? 2006 contract went until October of 2010. Bridge contract was signed Jan 2011.

OK Tuck.....You got me.

The point was the Bridge Contract was TA'd very close to Amendable date. 2 1/2 months.....Not 2 1/2 years.:rolleyes:

If you want to get picky, the 30 October 2006 CBA was amendable on 31 October 2010. Per that agreement, ALPA Opened 90 days prior to that date.

We reached a TA on January 27, 2011 - 6 months later.

We ratified the CBA by membership vote in March, and the new CBA was backdated to an effective date of February 28, 2011 - 7 months after Openers.

It was amendable on the first day of the March, 2012, bid period, and again on the first day of the March, 2013, bid period.


To say that we worked a deal in 2 1/2 months is inaccurate, even if measured from the Amendable date to the official TA date. In reality, almost 6 months of negotiations were required on the core sections which were at most administrative, and the bulk of the TA, the LOAs and MOUs (ASAP, FOQA, FRMS/FRMP (Data Collection), Over/Under 60 Flying (ICAO), Iraq & Afghanistan flying, etc.), had been in work for literally years. The only part The Company was in a hurry for was the FDA LOA.



In reality, the process in which we find ourselves mired today began at the end of July, 2010, nearly 5 years ago. :mad:






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Tony et al.

I never said we only negotiated for 2 1/2 months for the bridge deal. I merely stated ALPA reached a TA very close to the amendable date of our first ALPA contract.

I only said this in response to others comments lauding Delta Management and ALPA reaching a TA 7 months before their current Contract becomes amendable.

The Devil is always in the Details.

Again I hope DALPA was able to get a great deal. We will soon see.

Angry because - we gave a lot to the company for very little in return! :mad:

So, yes you are correct, the devil is in the details!! :eek:

Page 641 in Delta Ta post in Major section has the TA pay rates. Sounds like the TA has some give backs to obtain those rates however. DELTA PLUS A NICKEL, at a minimum!!

Delta plus a Nickel? Go back to the Playground.

Delta plus $20.00. And that's a maybe.

Right. A nickel ?

That's what, $100 a year more to fly the backside of the clock with dangerous goods ?

GMAFB

Timid leadership has brought about most of our problems with this contract negotiations ........... Off timing for rank and file to demonstrate via picketing that was not scheduled prudently, continuous fracture in the rank and file on what is important. The company takes advantage of us at every corner and most folks know this but the status quo is keeping the issues and other problems alive.

At annual guarantee of 884 hours, it's only $44.20. You must be flying a lot more than most.


I'd be interested in knowing the number that's required to match the first-15-year earnings of a typical FedEx pilot versus a typical Delta pilot. Having the same top hourly rate won't cut it, as the Delta pilot reaches that top tier 3 years before the FedEx pilot maxes out. Our top rate would have to be higher in order to achieve even the same compensation in the first 15 years.

Maybe we should be looking to make our 12-year rates Delta plus a nickel. ;)






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A lot of frothing at the bit on the PAX discussions amongst the DA guys. One area they are all up about that we should be concerned is the sick leave changes. I know our mgnt. has been working overtime to limit the (in thier minds) "abuse" of SCK. I could see this issue coming back to us if they ratify this TA.

According to FDX Negotiating Committee updates, Management has been spewing LOTS of "Well, the industry standard ... does XYZ." And ALPA's rely has been, "We're not in the same business" (maybe not even in the same industry?).

Personally, I'm more concerned that Management will wave Delta's pay rates in front of us when we ask for a LOT more than that!

Good answer!*?


:confused:

Ours need to be at least 25% higher since it takes us 25% more years to reach the top pay scale.






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Tony or anyone - what's the history on our 15 year scales? How in the world did we ever get those when industry standard was 12?

It is more of that "hidden money" in our CBA!