It was meant to be, it was in response to a HIGHLY inflammatory remark.

Edit for the flipant remark.

I dont care if it is a true story or not. That was nearly 10 years ago. Get over it. You keep brownie from making crap up about 4A2b and Ill quit correcting him/her/it.

There is zero upside to pecker measuring, ripping open old wounds or "hero in our own mind" attitudes on the internet.

FedEx isn't UPS, and UPS isn't FedEx - to draw parallels out of ignorance about the others' operation is, well...ignorant.

I don't expect the EB to negotiate with the interests of FDX pilots in mind, nor do I expect FDX ALPA to negotiate with the interest of UPS pilots in mind.

We need to focus on a 100% YES vote to help empower the EB and NC to get this thing over the goal line.

100% agree our contracts are different animals, we traditionally have better work rules and job protection. You guys have better pay rates. That doesnt bother me in the least. As I have said on the whole I'll take our contract.

If the MEC wouldnt work with the IPA in 2006 I would suggest you try again, we have had a lot of turn over in 10 years.

What strikes me is the statement, "It does not even guarantee no furlough".

What brownie and 1800 RVR didn't mention was just how much money was raised in attempting to prevent the furlough. The IPA gave UPS approximately $120,000,000.00 in our voluntary decrease in guarantee. 120 million dollars. And UPS said thanks for that and furloughed anyway.

In truth I don't know the FDX contractual language of 4a2b. Does the language specifically say that 4a2b will be activated to prevent furlough? The, "rumor", was that FDX pilots on the whole were not happy with the 4a2b clause being activated. That the FDX pilot group didn't even know it was in their contract to begin with. Again, that was the rumor. Maybe it was a highlighted talking point before the contract was signed and the rumor mill twisted it.

But to be sure........if the IPA had a similar 4a2b clause, especially with no guarantee of not being able to furlough regardless, UPS would have activated 4a2b in perpetuity. In other words, the IPA would never ever ever ever agree to any clause remotely resembling 4a2b.

In years past, possibly FDX negotiated and operated in good faith with their pilot group. And the 4a2b clause was used with the sole intent of preventing a furlough. I know at UPS, that would be a unicorn and rainbow fantasy.

Or, FDX said the same......thanks for that....having no real plans to furlough. It was in the contract and they used it to save money. Again, negotiating and operating in good faith is not something we have the luxury of at UPS.

And I hope that concept continues for FDX in the future.

4A2b language is imposed to prevent or delay a furlough. It imposes flying hour restrictions on each pilot in order to spread the pain. Most of the heatburn about implemantation the time it was imposed was the fact that the company controlled the distribution of hours and the airbus and 727 fleets were hit harder than the "international" fleets and reserve guys contractually had to work the same number of days for less pay. Our new TA cleans it up a bit and forces a system bid on the company. The big misunderstanding that UPS pilots seem to have is we worked for "half pay". Not true we worked less days for the same pay rate. One thing we have that I don't think you guys have is carry over. Basically a trip that starts in one month but pays mostly in the next month. It equals about 10 percent of our total flying and generally goes to a select few. The first time they didn't have to limit that. Now they do. On the whole 4A2b is has supporters and detractors. But the truth is if the company is flying less hours it the pain should be shared.

Boy did you gloss that over.

Many of us not only lost LOTS of pay, we were excessed from our seats, put through multiple training cycles, and abused on reserve as we were being pushed out of seats that were supposedly overmanned.

I personally was flown to FAA maximums and then into my last days off in a seat that I was being excessed from because.........wait for it................ it was "overmanned". That's the kind of cool stuff that lurks in 4a2b.

Ignore the previous poster.

Pipe

You confuse 4A2b with the over 65 grab. Now that I am approaching 50% with the company you have my permission to dump it. I will remain a fan. What I glossed over was the real reason for 4A2b, the company changed their manning model particularly their reserve manning model.

Would you prefer to furlough with everyone getting guarantee and flying extra? Like I said, a furlough won't hurt me much, dump it if you want.

And that's FO probation pay. It goes up from there.

I don't think it's so much...it happened 10 years ago....."Get over it".

The Fred of the past wanted to take care of his pilot group. I hope the Fred of the future has the same concept.

I think highlighting that hourly pay event of 10 years ago does go a way to explain the difference between the FDX group and the IPA. In years past, because Fred did so well take care of his pilot group, the pilot group complied with what he wanted. In years past, there was a spirit of cooperation that has not existed at UPS.

I think times started changing particularly with the purchase of Tigers. The FDX pilots would know better. I know voting in ALPA was a big step towards ticking Fred off. So maybe that too was an approximation of a tipping point of good faith.

If 4a2b was clearly written with the sole intention of preventing a furlough and Fred was honest to his word of why it was activated, then so be it. The downside is as pipe said.......the agony wasn't evenly distributed. That is the downside to a clause concerning reduction in pay. The junior guys get hosed. In an all volunteer save the furlough attempt, those that can, do. And the results show the determination of the IPA group (120 million is not a small number), in an all volunteer effort to save furloughs. And nobody gets hosed besides of course the furloughs. But they were totally grateful for the attempt. Not to mention the COBRA and xmas presents. Of course when UPS said thanks for that and furloughed anyway, we continued to be unified with more strength of purpose. UPS had in effect just ripped us off for 120 million and laughed all the way to the bank.

And that is the difference. A volunteer effort and an invoked clause are two completely different things. A volunteer effort demonstrates unity. An invoked clause creates dissention.

Yes we do have carryover.

No we did not think FDX pilots were at a 50% pay cut nor that the hourly rate had been reduced. We knew that was a reduction in guarantee. It was about a 33% pay cut? Something like that. Maybe 25%? But we knew not 50%.

FDXLag,
I'll tell you my story about the last go-around concerning negociations. We (UPS crew) were picked up by the hotel van after we landed. The van driver asked if we could wait for a FedEx crew that just landed, no problem we said. The FedEx crew got in the van and the Captain said "Thanks for waiting, it's a pleasure to be around pilots who have a union with balls!" We just sat there speechless, when his F/O said "Jim, don't start this crap again, can't you just sit down and be quiet!" The Capt looks at us and says, My F/O has no balls and neither does he"' as he pointed to the Flight Engineer. The discussion got a little uncomfortable for the remainder of the ride to the hotel with the Captain holding court. The FedEx F/O , who was an older guy, and I took the elevator up to our floor. On the elevator he said that the Capt was a jerk and if FedEx pilots went on strike Fred Smith would hire Phillipine Airlines to haul FedEx cargo. at the time Phillipine Air was having financial issues. I told the F/O that Phillipine Air only has about 35 big jets, and could never replace the 600 jets FedEx flies, he said "Really, only 35". Then he said, " It's easier for UPS to have a strong union, because all the other labor groups were unionized and they would walk if the pilots went on strike". He told me only the pilots at FedEx are unionized and no other labor groups would honor a pilot strike. I told him, "If the pilots don't fly the planes there's nothing the other groups could do anyway". He looks at me and said "Fred will replace us". I was surprised by how
much fear and confidence he had about even a threat of a strike and its implications to the pilots. From what I'm reading on APC lately, it looks like most of the FedEx pilots are dissatisfied with the T/A and hopefully you guys will hold out for a more lucrative and better agreement. I hope that F/O I met that night, isn't the majority. A lot of my FedEx bro's seem determined to get a better deal, good luck to you guys.

It's a good story, at least 10 years ago. Of course it sounds like the captain could survive a strike by selling a boat, nothing wrong with that. No one has been more adamant about saying no than me since our 2006 vote, my one and only yes so far. That said, this TA aint that bad. I could live with it, if it gets voted down, I can live with that. We took the interim deal in 2011 to give you guys a chance to close a deal, it didn't happen. Maybe if we say no you guys can take the lead.

Flag,
Fingers crossed we both get the contracts we deserve.

Good luck to the line pilots over at UPS from a regular Joe FedEx line pilot. Both our company's are huge profitable behemoths that said we couldn't compare ourselves to the airlines when they had superior contracts 15 years ago. Today they say we can't ignore the fact that we all have the same job skill set. We have helped our company's remain and grow profitability during the worst recession since the great depression. Management has been rewarded with bonus after bonus and incentive after incentive. UPS and FedEx pilots deserve contracts that represent the value we deliver everyday to our company's and I'm glad the UPS pilots have the balls to stand up and demand it. I hope the FedEx pilots can finally use our brains and realize this decade long TA offer is wholly inadequate and for once use our spines and vote this Turd down.

FDXAV8R,
Great post!

I have also followed your guys's situation somewhat closely and am hoping you, as we, get what you have earned and deserve.

I am amazed by the unity you have there, which is a fortunate byproduct of the unfortunate management you have. I drove a UPS package car for a summer during college, and got a slight taste of what you guys deal with night in and night out. In my short time at FDX as a pilot though, and the decade I've been involved with the company, I have seen our management go in that same adversarial direction. I still in many ways bleed Purple, and I hope I always will. In a twisted way, I admire the company for being able to pull off what any other airline would love to do: sell a TA to 50% +1. It seems like it might be that close. I wish we had your resolve and unity. And I know that after a decade under this TA, if ratified, we will absolutely be closer to you guys in that sense.

Only hoping the best for you guys, our brothers and sisters from the same world, in different colors.

Leo,

You have lost it, brother. Step away from the keyboard and ask a trusted friend to help you find your way back to reality.

Our interim deal had nothing to do with UPS. Stop embarrassing yourself.





.

Too bad that was the only logical reason.

In your own mind.

Good one. That will teach me to mess with a mind like your. Coexist out.

Fedex Pilots turn down TA
 

I am guessing that we, Fedex pilots will vote NO to the TA and be in a similar situation with the Company as the "peak" shipping season approaches. Let the stuff pile up I say! Sorry it aint getting there this year. Enough is enough!

YA !!!! show some balls

Maybe we need professional negotiators? I hear this "PR Professional" is looking for work ...

Anthony Weiner out of his job at powerhouse PR firm | Page Six


:eek:

When is the Strike Ballot arriving? Let's get on with it. 98.9% YES out of 2700 will be the Final Tally.

This is how you strengthen your NC and MEC. Without it, Management has zero fear to bargain a Good Contract. A p*ss poor one, yes.

I'm sorry that IMO 57% of our group let the future of our industry down, as a whole, you guys included. I'd like to see the IBT on our property.

Good luck with negotiations going forward.

You do know that the IPA represents the pilots of UPS?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

“Forget it, he’s on a roll"

Disappointing for sure but I guess that's what the majority of you guys/gals wanted? :-/

By the way, I certainly hope we never see IBT on our property again.. IPA all the way!

Hope it works out for you. Over here at FX we failed as a group again and got walked on. We're spineless

Just remind me...how many people voted for IPA contract 2006...something like 51%. I remember sitting on the jumpseat heading up to ANC after the contract was ratified and praying that a fist fight didn't break out between the the 2 "no" voters and the 2 ""yes" voters. Glad to see your unity has improved since that time. At that time I was told how our MEC cut the legs out from under you guys. Our lack of balls....
So I asked if you at least got improvements in your sick, retirement, deadhead, vacation, work rules, etc. to bring you up to our level....crickets.

Best of luck with your new contract. I hope you guys can extract industry leading pay rates and all the other important QOL issues that go into the whole picture.

Sorry, meant IPA.

Really, a strong Union is the result of the pilots' involvement. The actual name of the Union is secondary. That being said, ALPA Natl, which is great at legal representation and lobbying, is quite lame when it comes to the backing and directing of contract negotiations. I've now seen that, from my personal perspective, on two different ALPA properties.

56/44 in favor.

Given how similar your 2015 vote was (in contrast to your 95/5 vote back in 2006), hopefully you won't have to pray about YES and NO voters avoiding fist fights.

Although the 12% UPS B plan is nice...hope they can double their A plan and give us something to shoot for in our next TA

I would rather they double the B plan. Money in my pocket for me to invest how I see fit……Oh…..and it will still be there in 19 years when I retire.

Ask Eastern, Braniff, and Pan Am guys about their A-Plans? I'll take a bump in the B-plan over any A-plan improvements. Though we're both fortunate to work for companies that still can afford both

I keep hearing this and I am surprised how many guys don't know anything about the limits on these plans. The percentage's are worthless, the maximum limit that can be placed in the MPP is $31,800 for 2015 imposed by the IRS. Thats it! Our Captains max out that limit by September so in essence they are leaving money on the table every year. A higher percentage is ideal if your a junior FO but even our senior FO's max out the limit. So Higher A plan, profit sharing or 401K company contributions is what we need not a higher percentage of B plan. Vito I am not beating up on you just tired of guys not knowing the limits and how percentages don't mean a thing!

The defined contribution limit for 2015 is $53k, the annual compensation limit for 2015 is $265k, and 12% of $265k is $31,800. One can currently use 401k contributions and after-tax contributions to get to the $53k limit.

Could there not theoretically be a 20% B-plan which, given the current $265k compensation limit, would contribute all $53k toward the DC limit?

Not saying it can't happen, but to get rid of the A fund, one of two things have to happen.

IPA negotiates it away.
UPS declares bankruptcy and the courts get rid of it.

I'll take more A fund, in addition to more B, so I don't have the uncertainty of the stock market

So there is no cash over cap? I assumed you guys had that (we don't).

One also never know when Congress will change these limits either...for the worse.

Shaggy1970,
You are correct, my bad..i forgot how close we are to the limit.

IMO, Apples to oranges when comparing relatively small passenger airlines dependent on a singular revenue source to massive logistic companies with multiple; much less risk exposure to economic fluctuations that create the conditions necessary for pension elimination. The last 2 decades have provided the perfect environment and yet the pensions have remained untouched.

Then there is the matter of scale: to give you an idea, Delta has 80K employees with 13K pilots (or 16% of workforce), FedEx 165K employees, 4500 pilots (2.7%), and UPS at 435K, 2500 pilots (0.6%). Funding a pension for less than 3% of employees vs 16+% is significantly less expensive which should make it more secure as well. It would be quite a feat if Fx and UPS were able to eliminate them. And pensions aren't that exotic, MRats, Quatar, and some of the other ME outfits have a Provident fund.