"Lie Flat" Seats
 

"Lie Flat" seats .... what could go wrong?

Today I just spent 7 hours in a coach middle seat getting to work on a SCHEDULED, company approved flight.

Background:
VTO line for Dec. Trip that left today (30 Nov) was an initial DH to ANC. I typically deviate, but after researching fares and realizing that it was one of the busiest travel days of the year, 1st Class options were virtually nil. I chose to stick with the scheduled pairing flights.

I then discovered that scheduling had failed to ticket me after the VTO release. Hence, a last minute emergency booking on a busy travel day and a revised pairing that transited ORD.

After arriving in ORD, the gate agent scoffed in my face at the thought of 1st class upgrade. All full. No options. All other airlines full on 1st class. Good luck!

Contacted ACP, scheduling and corporate travel on trying to resolve issues. Here is a few snippets of quotes from FDX agencies:
"You can deviate and book your own ticket"
"It's legal"
"You still get the bank money"
"It's not our job to chase the class fare, only to get you in place"


How can this happen? Simply because we failed to address soft contractual language that allows "if available" to get printed into the final CBA. It happens because they could give a rat's behind about doing what's right, rather than doing what's convenient.

So to the 57%, I'd like to say be careful what you wish (or vote) for.

BTW, my "first class" meal was 2 packages of pretzels.

Unequivocally and totally unacceptable.

Waaaaaah!!!!

I know it sucks. I don't have all the answers. I do know my HKG-SIN and NRT-HKG trips now provide business seats both ways, and the bank is about 4-5 times what is was two months ago, which gives me a lot more travel options.

Not mocking your situation. I am just pointing out there are some improvements for some of us as well. I guess it will be up to us individually to be proactive and lead turn getting our seats, which I know isn't perfect.

Seriously? Are you a new hire? You didn't even check for the flight booking? You can ALWAYS be booked in economy under previous contract and guess, what, under any future contract. Even if you rate first, if it's not available you won't get it. There is no way the Company would ever change that - come on. You sound like a prima donna, unless you are a new hire.

Why is this thread titled "Lie flat seats"? It sucks yes, but it has been happening to guys on reserve forever. Even if there are First Class seats available, most times they can put you in coach if there are no discounted seats available. Nothing new here.

I also am confused at why this is titled, "Lie Flat Seats".

But yeah, I'd be ****ed off and disgusted also. Maybe enough to write an ops report on the screwup by whomever forgot to ticket this when they should have. However, I do agree with the others who said this could have happened before or after the new contract.

For the next time, I think I'd call up crew schedule, tell them what the flight options are (that are legal, and in first class), and make it easy for them to rebuild the pairing in my favor. You never know, it might work. I would also check that they issued me a ticket, as soon as I realize that I'm going as scheduled, because I hear this kind of thing sometimes happens. Coach middle seats truly suck. Hopefully you had some beverage service that made it more tolerable.

The "if available" is the kicker. I've done the coach to anc as well on a last second ticket. The problem of Swiss cheese language in remains in this cba.

For some reason we don't get compensated for the flexibility our work rules gives the company to move freight. Yes there's some penalties for revisions, but not enough in my mind to start building the church for Easter. They rely on the wishy washy rules we've given them, with things such as the hsby astby schedule flood, reserve line conversion (yes I know this was eliminated but tbd is whenever) back filling line holders into asby, dh in coach or in the back of a 777 to dxb under the " all the that was available" canard. There is no incentive to man correctly because it doesn't cost them anything to use these practices.
We had a chance to fix this, we failed.

We had the opportunity to fix stuff like this but 57% thought it was good enough (as good as we were going to get?).

We voted for it ... it's our own fault (if you voted yes, find a mirror and ask yourself why you did that). Now Management can say, "You guys said you'd vote for anything that had a 10% pay raise!" Even they couldn't believe it!*?

Happy Holidays everyone!

:eek:

The dart throwers crack me up!

Prima Donna - well I guess I am since I expect the company to issue me a ticket in First/Business and I think we're worth it.

New Hire - Not hardly. I just had hopes that scheduling would fix the issues not just when it's convenient for them. I won't make the same mistake again.

Call the title anything you want. The point of the thread is like Hourshore and MayDay pointed out, our CBA has so many holes in it that should have been addressed during the last go around and yet weren't tightened up with language.

Contact with scheduling, crew control and ACP all fell on deaf ears.

It's over and done with so it's time to move on. Merry Christmas and hope this doesn't happen to you.

What was the accepted fare?

This attitude is the reason we will never get the crappy parts of our contract fixed. Just because it's always been like that?

Unbelievable! Not really, though.:(

Old 10-24-2015, 12:36 PM #8 (permalink)
ClutchCargo
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: FDX MD11 Capt in ANC
Posts: 731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 Magnum View Post
Even your "lie flat" seats in coach?

I'll send you a bottle of 15YO Laphroig the first time I have to ride coach with a lie flat seat. You've fallen for the "Proponents of Hysteria".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like hysteria won out over the purple kool aid drinkers.

Last minute booking to ANC on Thanksgiving weekend! First class aint going to be available. I don't care if you're Donald Trump, you're not getting an upgrade, and the gate agents will laugh at you for asking.

If first class is sold out then what is the company supposed to do?

BTW, no airline has "lie-flat seats" to or from ANC. It is all domestic first recliner style.

A hole's Unite!!!
 

Hey, the contract says if it's over 5 hours you are supposed to fly first class. It's just the contract, buy why follow it?

OBTW, Kokgobbler you are douche.

How about follow the contract!
 

I don't know, maybe follow the contract?!!!? Pick another flight that does meet the contractual language, not the get out jail free fine print twenty-two rows down lawyer clause that lets the company off the hook time after time.

Yet again, another company man, pillow biting douche!!!

First, this particular situation has nothing to do with our new contract (other than it wasn't fixed).

So, lessons learned (in case a new hire does find himself in a similar situation):
Be proactive - waiting for global travel to do their job isn't going to make your deadhead go well, especially if you have a Secondary line. If you don't have a ticket when your name is actually on the pairing and you're not deviating, start making calls. In addition, once you have a ticket, get on the airline website, look up your reservation and make sure you actually have a seat (call them if you have to). I've been traveling with other pilots who assumed their unassigned seat would work itself out and got bumped to coach when they checked in.

Finally, if all else fails, a 777 bunk or even an MD11 futon and some Corkys isn't a bad way to get to ANC if your other option is pretzels and a middle seat. There were 7 flights the day before this DH, one the day of and a couple early the next day (depending on how much slop you had in ANC or how badly you wanted the FF miles). I'm not suggesting making a habit of using company jumpseats instead of a proper deadhead but once in a very great while it may be the less painful option.

One of the nicest ways to deviate if you live east coast, is Cathy NY to Vancouver, then on the ANC.

Is Cathy your girlfriend?

sometimes you have to think and act for yourself.

I flew coach 14hrs from JFK-Seoul last week for 50% pay. Worst experience of my life...
Disclaimer: I'm not a FDX driver. My airplanes have those canary-sh!t-yellow tails.

Can I blame autocorrect?

I agree with you completely,...
fbh

You Fedex guys crack me up!

So what contract language would have fixed this. If a higher class of service is not available the company must pull a Concorde out of the boneyard? We have specific language that guarantees the company will book you in a higher class of service or reimburse your bank at the higher rate. Not sure how we could improve that language.

Obviously they should just cancel the trip until they can fly the pilot up there first class. ;) I mean seriously, people are calling that a "hole" in the contract? But you're right Busboy, people like me are why we will never get a real contract.

It was a scheduled flight. He didn't deviate. They built it that way. Perhaps they should be required to build trips that have actual seats available in the class of service that the CBA requires, kind of. This isn't rocket surgery. If the deadhead flight they want to build into the trip doesn't have the proper seats...Find a different flight that does.

This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So maybe we should bid 4 months out when they build the pairings so that they can reserve us seats? That will make vacation bidding a little more challenging.

Yah...You're right. There's no way they could work around that. I'm sure it would cost too much, anyway. :rolleyes:

Yes, exactly! Now I can see how that might be impossible for them on a last minute booking, one of the busiest days of the year, however.....they do this crap routinely. Book us over five hours on deadheads that include commuter flights, Frontier, and Southwest, with no first class section---when there are PLENTY of options available.

One time I randomly checked what first class flights were available from Memphis that would have been legal to my destination, and there were about 15 flights that they could have booked me on. There is no requirement to look for a flight where first class actually exists, so they look at where they can save the most money. How that one flies is beyond me. I understand if there is no other option, but sometimes it appears to be the first choice. Why the hell they didn't fix this loophole in the contract is beyond me. I wonder if they even tried.

If you bother to read the OP's scenario, you'd see there weren't any different flights.

He had a secondary and there were 5 days from official assignment of the trip to deadhead day, so it was going to be tight anyway. He failed to be proactive and at some point even closer to the day of travel, he "discovered" scheduling didn't buy the ticket yet :rolleyes: (Global Travel buys tickets, not scheduling - but whatever).

So, when someone finally got around to actually buying a ticket to get this guy to ANC, there weren't ANY on the fights in the original pairing.
Hint: if you can't find a flight on which to deviate through the normal deviating process on PFC or going directly to the airlines, chances are Global Travel isn't going to have any better luck.

Now they had to revise the pairing to reflect whatever last minute flight they were able to find that actually had ANY seat - first class was a pipe dream at that point. Whatever requirements you want in the contract Busboy wouldn't have mattered in this situation.

The OP didn't help himself out and IMO seems inexperienced with deviation and FedEx airline travel in general. There was exactly ONE flight from ORD to ANC non-stop on his day of travel. 16 first class seats. It was the Monday after Thanksgiving. Showing up at the airport during the connection and trying to get an upgrade was laughable. No wonder the gate agent scoffed. His only chance was to start the process the week prior on Wednesday night when the VTOs were official. Even then it might have been tough, but the chances were way higher than asking for an upgrade at the gate. If he really wanted to deviate, he probably could have started even sooner since the VTOs usually get built a few days before that and you can see which trip you have early. He could have had a ticket in hand before Global Travel even started looking.

What's so hard about requiring The Company to book the seat when the trip is awarded?


Maybe next contract ...






.

Good point, in a perfect world that would be enough. Even if it was written in blood, no one cares about your first class seat more than you. If this were you Tony, I doubt you're going to assume it's getting done and just hope everything works out. Chances are, no matter what the contract says, you would be on the lookout for the email from Global Travel and start making noise when things weren't happening on the proper timeline.

Proper timeline? I didn't know there was such an animal.


What I see happening more often is The Company waiting to book the ticket, hoping the pilot will deviate, because booking the ticket might be expensive, or even expose the fact that there are no seats of any class available on the scheduled flight. That would require revising the trip to use a flight sequence that can actually be purchased instead of using phantom seats that they hope won't be used.

Could the OP have been more proactive? Certainly. Should he HAVE to be?






.

He didn't get booked in coach with a lay flat seat.

I just D/H'd CAN-ICN 1st class on KE. 3+10 block. Expedited screening, 1st class lounge. Sweet!





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OMG, He gets it?
 

.........+1

Hey Company Man.....
 

Are you typing this from your cubicle at the AOC or does a manager have his hand up your backside forcing you to type is piffle you azzz muppet!

In most cases, the proper timeline is ASAP, especially with a VTO. Lines are final Wednesday night and this DH was Monday. If I didn't see an email from GT by Thursday morning, I'd be on the phone. Actually, I would have already known I had the trip before that and had the deviation ticket in hand (if it was available).

So, if you're deviating, buy the ticket the second you know you have the trip. Under the new contract, when you actually deviate depends on more factors, but nothing stops you from buying the ticket you want. If you're taking the scheduled, either bug them until they buy it or just buy the same ticket like it's a deviation ticket. Then, if they have issues getting the proper ticket when they finally get around to it, you already have it.

Now you're opening up a whole different can of worms. We all know there aren't enough seats out of MEM on a Monday morning to accommodate the scheduled DHs and all of our deviations solve the problem. That's way beyond the scope of this particular situation encountered by the OP.

Theory vs. Reality He absolutely should not have to jump through hoops to get the proper ticket as defined in the CBA (if it's available). Everyone is welcome to fall on that sword to prove a point or they can take charge of their situation. The price of relying on the system to take care of you may be a middle seat in coach eating stale pretzels.

In this particular case, we'll probably never know if there ever was a first class seat available even if the OP jumped through every hoop, Global Travel was acting the second the trip was assigned and every option was considered. What Chainsaw and others seem to be ignoring is that by the time this trip was assigned and GT tried to book the ticket, there weren't any first class seats left. It's a VTO line with 5 days from trip assignment to DH over Thanksgiving weekend. It wasn't built the way it ended up. By the time the trip was assigned, the original DH it was built with didn't even have coach seats left, never mind first class. They had to revise the trip just to find a DH that had seats available.

No. Just someone who isn't all worked up about global travel screwing up and not thinking it is part of an evil plot. I also care about my travel and make it work. But I am someone who knows for the contract to work the pilots must be proactive to enforce it. I also called the company out on accepted fare likely before you were hired and got zero help from ALPA.