Sun Country vs staying at Regional?
 

Sun Country recently lowered their hiring minimums to essentially ATP minimums. I am in my mid 20s, and am a 1 year FO at SkyWest. I live in MSP. I was just invited to interview at Sun Country and am looking for some opinions. (No, I wont make a big life decision through a forum - no need to remind me).

The question is, if I manage to get the job at Sun Country, should I accept or stay at SkyWest? I ultimately want to work at a major airline - Delta and United are my top preferences in that order.

Pros:
-Opportunity to fly a 737 around the world, seems incredibly more fun than flying to Lansing, MI.
-B737 type rating
-Year 4 captain pay at Sunny beats 20+ yr captain pay at SkyWest should I end up there for any length of time. I fly with so many captains at SkyWest who "still haven't gotten called." The thought of being stuck at a regional terrifies me. Why not take action now?
-Keeps me living in base in MSP. I love MSP and really don't want to move away or commute anywhere.
-I've only invested 1 year of my life into the airlines so far, so it would be much less of a loss for me (seniority and pay wise) to make this move vs somebody in a different position/timeline. If they invited me 6 months from now it would be a totally different conversation. It's now or never.
-The new firm that owns Sunny has large growth plans. Potential to get on the front end of some serious growth. Or... it could just close shop in a year lol. Who knows really lol... but then again I could always come back to SkyWest- keep living in base, keep my longevity pay with their Soft Landings deal.

Cons:
-My QOL at SkyWest, living in a junior base, is actually really fantastic. I get a lot of days off and have a lot of control over my schedule. I honestly can't complain about anything. "Why fix what aint broke?"
-I would be deferring upgrade for approximately 1.5 - 2 years by doing the Sunny move. If I stay at SkyWest I could upgrade in as
little as 1 year or less. So PIC time building would be delayed. Plus I would enjoy being a captain more than an FO.
-Sunny stability vs SkyWest? SkyWest owns their own aircraft and have never furloughed in 45 years. Is it crazy of me to think that SkyWest might actually be a safer business than Sun Country? Please tell me if you think otherwise.
-I hear captain reserve time at Sun Country is extremely long and they don't fly much. I haven't confirmed this. But that's probably no good...


Sooo any thoughts? My end goal is a major airline, and I don't want to delay that chance. But I'm also totally excited about this opportunity... It IS a career advancement right? Not a lateral move? I would be pretty upset to see myself still at Skywest in 4 years knowing I could've been at Sun Country all that time...and that's what worries me. I also get butterflies in my stomach thinking of flying a 73 on some charter to Asia or something. I got into this industry for the fun more so than the money.

Since you won’t be commuting, I’d say go to Sun Country. The number pure civilian background folks hired by legacies within their first 5 years of 121 flying is small. Sun is probably the better move long term.

I can’t believe this decision is actually a debate.

Sun Country for sure. Shouldn’t even be a question.

But you have to interview and be offered a job first. Don’t count your chickens just yet...

Sun Country. I think that place has a lot of potential. Get out of the regionals.

MSP is a Skywest base and you're already holding it? Is it also a Jr captain base? If Delta/United are your ultimate goal, then stick with the job that will get you an upgrade the quickest. If you've currently got good quality of life, then why change anything? If you'd have to commute to sit reserve once you upgrade at Skywest, I'd consider the Sun Country move...but as others have said, you gotta interview first. There's no decision to make until you have an offer.

If you're background is clean and you're big-six material in all respects, if you stay at SKW, take the first upgrade, the bigs will almost certainly call in the next few years.

In my mind, the key question with sun country is how long to upgrade? And how much will you fly as a junior CA.

If you're going to the big-six for sure, then take the fastest route.

If you have any background glitches, or are risk-averse, then maybe better to lock in the decent job at sun country now, and maybe move on later, even if it delays your ultimate career progression.

But I would most definitely ask someone at sun country how their training, schedules, etc are (I have no idea).

Stay. Upgrade. Build up 121 PIC time.
Delaying upgrade doesn’t help your resume. The majors are more interested in you upgrading vs you flying a 737.

Your looking at general gates on your resume to be more competitive. DL had a two year average civilian new hire qualifications of 7600 TT and 4100 PIC(not 121, just PIC). They also said “highly qualified is 1000 hrs TPIC). Other airlines have mentioned 500, or 1000 hrs TPIC, or 121 PIC, in the past.

I’d prepare two resumes, on a forward looking yearly basis, comparing what your resume would look like if you went to Sun Country vs staying at Skywest. And compare them to when you’d get 3,000 TT, 4,000, 5,000, 7600, as well as 500, 1,000 and 2,000 hrs 121 PIC. As well as when might you have an opportunity to be a CKA? I think the answer would be to stay.

Pay? Ridiculous to look at pay. Getting the best resume to get higher at your final job faster is the ultimate goal. A year added at the end of your career for a young guy is worth over $600,000, and perhaps $700,000, in today’s dollars. Let’s say you’re going to get hired at X hrs total time. Going to Sun Country will delay you reaching X hrs by approx. three months. If that’s the difference in getting hired it just cost you $150,000. So there’s a value to not jumping between jobs unless the new job fills an obvious hole in your resume/career advancement.

You’ll have the opportunity to fly the 737, or A320, for years and years at a major. Don’t chase a ‘big’ jet job unless it fills a hole in your resume or you have lots of squares filled but aren’t getting any traction. Then I’d pursue a new opportunity.

Short answer - You’re trading two years of regional Captain for two years of 737 FO experience on your resume. That is not a resume improvement move. Be patient and make steady advancements towards a competitive resume.

Good luck.

Interview anyway. Decide when/if you have a job offer.

If you have any questions shoot me a PM. I was pretty much in the same situation as you . Only difference for me is that I went from commuting to now being based here in MSP. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have.

FYI upgrade is 2 years.

Sun Country is 2 year upgrade.. He is still a 1 year 121 guy will need to build what 4000 TT to be competitive at the big 3. He could be flying to vacation destinations on a 737 while building TT and upgrade in two years. Bigger equip. looks better on a resume plus his QOL will be 10x what it is now while he builds his TT up.

Keep in mind as much as 25% of new hire classes are not making it through training. It’s a big blemish if you don’t make it. Qol is not gonna be better on reserve as a captain. 737 type might help but a faster upgrade at Skywest would be enough to get hired as well. The destinations should not be a deciding factor on coming to SCA... your goal should be to make as much money as you can in the fewest amount of days. Long layovers mean no pay on a crap trip rig. If they don’t grow there won’t be much upgrading. They are already downsizing growth plans because no one will come and stay here.

25%.? We are talking about a 737 are we not? It's not the space shuttle. Does the training suck that bad they can't get people through the sim? Or are they failing elsewhere?

Very presumptuous of you to tell the guy what “his goal should be”
He’s not asking you for that.

This!!! Delta/United care more about 121 PIC time than aircraft type. Go with the job that will get you in that seat the fastest.

It’s happening in ground school, the sim and IOE. They don’t hire pilots they think can make it. They hire pilots that qualify for the ATP.

Your right. Most guys like that. To each their own.

Do the interview, if they give you an offer, decide then. I would recommend staying at Sky West and upgrading ASAP if you want Delta/United. Delta can teach you to fly 737's but they want you to have PIC experience before you walk in the door.

Is there a min TT or time in type etc to upgrade at sun country? How many hrs do people fly a yr there?

I ask because even if upgrades are at 2 yrs but you need 4k hrs also would someone who only has a yr at a regional be able to meet those requirements in 2 yrs?

I think the road to a major would happen faster at skywest.

In regards to the whole failure rate deal. Regionals are also seeing this. I think it has more to do with the lowering of hiring standards then it has to do with the actual training program itself.



I feel like having been at a regional for a year now, having that jet experience, and having no training problems while here means I can reasonably expect to do well at SCA. But if there is something fundamentally wrong with the training, that is something I would like to know.

So what about upgrading AND flying a 737? Because in my position it's going to be another year as an FO anyway, I could start now on the seniority at SCA. This is the ONLY time I would even consider this given how little I have invested.



I think a lot has to do with how often reserve captains actually fly at SCA? Does anybody know? That seems important.



And Sliceback, thanks very much for you input.

For any Sun Country pilots out there, was the decision to go something you are currently regretting? Or was it worth it? I would love to hear honest answers to that question. I think that would be very insightful.

Ask yourself. When Age 67/70 passes or when the industry tanks again, where would you rather be stuck? Skywest or Sun Country?

Roll the dice and go. Worse case, you get home based right seat 737. Best case, someone bigger buys you out. I went to a LCC that ended up being bought by a legacy. Make no mistake, there will be more mergers especially among the un-merged. Hawaiian, JetBlue, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, and Sun Country are the only majors that haven’t merged yet in recent times. They will merge, be bought, acquired, etc.

Was in the same boat several years ago...tried desperately to get on w/ Sun Country, but they were in a hiring lull.

Ended up staying, and on my first day of Captain ground school at SKW, finally got the call to interview. Needless to say, at that point it was even clearer that staying was the right move.

I'd check into Sun Country's history a little more...furloughs, multiple bankruptcies, highest lease rates in the industry-it's a checkered past-albeit with a promising future as a low cost, no frills airline with a solid pilot group and a (somewhat) loyal customer base.

My .02, is to stay at SKW, bc you'll upgrade sooner rather than later, fly a ton, and focus on getting out to a destination airline ASAP. But maybe that's just bc it worked out for me. Best of luck, and feel free to PM if you need more info.

This. RUN to Sun Country if you get the offer. I flew international charters at a non-sked in my late 20s and it was so much fun. You’ll love it and get a life experience that you can never get even at UAL or DLA. Seriously.....this shouldn’t even be debated.

APC has SC’s fleet and pilot corps size. What’s the updated fleet and pilot corps size? What are their short term hiring plans? What’s their attrition rate for guys leaving to other jobs? They’re currently at 14 pilots per aircraft. That’s probably a hiring bubble, and perhaps retention related, slightly high number. What’s the manning requirement if it drops to 12 pilots per aircraft?

Based on 450 pilots by EO 2018, 10% annual attrition, 6-7 aircraft increase per year, upgrading at 60% of the overall seniority list, I’d estimate your looking at a late 2021 upgrade. If manning drops to 12 per aircraft I’d estimate an upgrade in 2022.

Based on a 1-1.5 estimate to upgrade at SKW there’s a good possibility you’d be at approx 1000 hrs 121 PIC in 2021 when you’d upgrade at SC. Based on those assumptions switching to SC vs staying at SKW might be a 1.5-2 yr delay to 1000 hrs 121 PIC.

You’d have to estimate the confidence level of your SKW upgrade estimates. How stable is their 3-4 yr regional contract outlook with their major partners? If the upgrade estimate is 1.5-2 yrs I think I’d stay at SKW. If the upgrade estimates are based on attrition I’d give that a higher confidence level vs having to rely on SC’s planned expansion. If SC only gets half the aircraft they’re expecting your time to upgrade, with 10% attrition, your AC might be 2022 or later. By then you’d be in the 1500-2000 121 PIC range at SKW (assuming advancement stays as you estimated).

Since you’ve been at SKW a year I’m estimating your at a minimum of 2,000-2,500 TT. In three years does your projected SKW resume have you at 4,500-5,000 TT and 1,000 121 TPIC? 29 yrs old? At 30 you’d be 5,000-6,000 TT and 1,500 121 PIC? Plus any other PIC time bumping you to 2,000-2,500 PIC? That’s when the hiring bubble is at its peak which will last several years. (search TallFlyer’s posts).

Compare your future resumes, which includes future fleet and pilot corps size at both airlines, when choosing either job achieves specific TT/PIC/121 PIC gates (3K, 4K, 5K/1,000, 2,000/500, 1,000) and make steady decisions. As a young guy live smaller and ignore the money differences. Getting hired six months sooner will more than pay for any short term pay differences you’ll experience over the next 3-5 yrs. Choose the best resume path that focuses on advancing your major airline goal fastest.

I just reread your post. re:upgrading within a year. Crunch the pilot corps size at SC after getting the current head count and see if anyone has actual attrition rates. Given an average fleet increase of 6-7 aircraft per year and an attrition rate of 10% you might upgrade 2-3 yrs sooner at SKW. You'd have 1,000-2,000 hrs 121 PIC before you upgrade at SC. If you compare side by side future resumes I’d think that would jump off the page.

Research the history of SY, especially during economic downturns. If your long term plan is Southwest, then maybe.

If you're looking to build time in the 737 and get to a major this might not be the place to go. We really don't fly here that often. Lots of trips are rigged and inefficient to go along with ton's of deadheading.

Comparing the 3 years at my previous regional vs the 3 years here at SY I have about 1300 less flight hours. As for reserve captains at SY flying? Not very often at all. The last two months have notched me 19 hours of TPIC.

This is what I'd say as well.

Apply. Interview if you get invited. Then decide.

I've done a regional like Skywest for a long time. I did Sun Country for a year. I have no regrets.

I was hired in early 2016 at SY and some of my classmates who are there have upgraded to captain now if that tells you anything. But many don't take first available.

If you live in MSP and are happy to stay, it could be a decent choice. It certainly opened up a big opportunity for me but I had thousands of hours of total time, jet time and jet PIC, so we aren't really comparable. Besides, I'm closer to the end of my career than the beginning and you are closer to the beginning.

Tough choice but made easier if you live in, and wish to stay in, the MSP area. Sunny is not commuter-friendly in the least. But if you live there it can be a good place to work. I would have stayed but was basically offered something I couldn't refuse, and I have pretty deep roots in Minneapolis.

The international stuff is interesting and having lived overseas I would probably have kept doing it had I stayed.

No regrets here but I had sort of run the course at the regionals and it was time for a change.

BTW, don't underestimate the challenge of training at Sun Country. It's no cakewalk. Don't think because they're small and short of pilots that they're going to let anyone skate through. That doesn't happen. So if you go that route take it seriously and buckle down to get through.

An interview and a job offer are TWO different things. This isn’t your “RJ” So, when can you start interview.”
Get the job, then think of what’s best for YOU.

I'm in the same position as this guy except second year FO pay at SC is year 8 captain pay at my regional. At some point the money is more important.

Were you at great lakes? Cause 2nd year FO pay at SC should not equal 8 year captain at a regional.

Probably Mesa, because I think Lakes is gone. Yeah at my current airline you would have to upgrade at SY, and even then it would be year 5 or so.

Wow, just looked at Mesa payscale. I thought they passed a TA for more pay.

That's great advice!! I may DM you for some advice for me!

I know plenty more folks that went to sun country for the DC-10/737 type and quick upgrade..... AND YET THEY GOT FURLOUGHED SEVERAL TIMES - than I know folks (1) that went there to move on to a “dream job”. So if you’re going to make a move at such a young age, hope you have some savings to fall back on!

Do you know what the “military waivarable” number is?

Minimums:
1,500 hours total fixed wing pilot time (waiver for military)

Will sun pay for ATP
 

Do u need a atp for sun county
Will they pay for your atp like the regionals are doing. There will come a time very soon that sun country will not be able to find pilots will have to follow the regionals footstep of offering to pay for ATP any thoughts on this

Currently, I don’t believe they will pay for an ATP.
With the strong possibility of additional basing in the not so distant future, the commuting options will improve therefore, the candidate hiring pool becomes much wider. Consequently, I don’t believe SCA will need to pay for ATPs anytime soon.