CommutAir v Expressjet v Air Whiskey
 

I've spent a lot of time on these forums lurking for the past few months, and I know everyone tends to hate this kind of thread, but I am really looking for insight into how these three regionals compare. My end goal is United, and I'm currently a CFI/CFII approaching 1500. Mid-20's and unattached, so I don't care about where I'm based, and aiming to start training sometime in January (pending a CJO, obviously).

Priorities:
1) Quality initial training
2) Fly a lot
3) Upgrade quickly
4) QOL
5) Pay

Obviously achieving all 5 of these goals is what everyone wants, but really if I can achieve the top 3 priorities then I can live with lackluster pay and QOL.

As I see it, C5 and Expressjet both have reputable training departments, while Air Whisky's reputation is less than stellar. It seems C5 might be overstaffed on FO's so that might be the lowest of the three for flight hours, but not sure about Air Whisky or ExpressJet. Not sure how the three compare for the rest of the priorities.

As things stand now, would you come to C5 again? How do things compare at ExpressJet or Air Whisky? Of these three, which would offer the most flying for a new FO? How is pay between these three?

I know APC has tons of info on pay and per diem, but it doesn't really offer any insight on the day-to-day reality on the ground. Thanks in advance for any info!

I think C5 is a great place to come. We are growing which means fast progression up the list. I would not read to much into current reserve times. They are dropping and will do so even more over the next 6 months as we start an upgrade wave and have limited FO hiring the last few months. In the schema of life, 2 or 6 months does not make much difference. As for pay we are in negotiations now for a new contract so pay should increase at some point in the future.

Lots of movement at XJT. Fast training and a crap ton of flying.

My buddy at C5 said he was surprised how bad the training program was run there. XJT has a good program.

C5 pilots: how many hours a month are you blocking on reserve?

At XJT after IOE I had a reserve line with 19 days of work, the next month a relief line with 14 days, and the third month a hard line with 14 days. Since then it has been about the same. Averaging 75-80 hours per month block.

Just to clarify, you’re getting 15-16 days off a month right out of the gate? If so, that’s nice. Are you on the 145 or 175 and what base? What is your average credit?

A “reserve line” is NOT 19 days off. That’s BS. A day on reserve when you are not called is nice, but it’s certainly not a “day off”. Only the most SENIOR people (like....20+ years) at XJT get more than 15 days off a month.

Agreed, read it again though. He’s referring to days of work, not days off. 19 days of work is 11 days off...

So Commutair training was bad compared to who? How many training programs has your friend been through? For sure it can be improved but by no means is it sub standard.

I wouldn’t say it’s ran poorly. It needs improvement in certain areas, but if you pay attention in class, study at night, put work into chair flying and show up to the GFS/SIM prepared, it accomplishes the goal. I’m no systems whiz by any definition, but I came out of the program knowing the systems and confident coming out of the SIM going to OE.

There’s still work to be done in areas like updating manuals and streamlining certain processes, but they haven’t had the jet long, and are twice the seniority numbers as they were a few years ago. The majority of instructors spend the evenings at the training hotels too to review, answer questions and give advice for success.

I’m an FO EWR based 10 months on property. Second month in a row 17 days off with 78-83h of block. One month of reserve with 12 days off. 2 months of relief line with 15 and 14 days off. I got hard line with 12 days off, but if you know how to use improvement window you will end up with 15+ days off easily.

Agreed.

Not only was it adequate but the instructors were fantastic. They really want you to succeed

The training program is very hit or miss. Some instructors are amazing and some are flaming dog ****. The average instructor is pretty good. The turnover is so high and the need for instructors so pressing they can't find the golden nuggets to keep in the training department (or entice to keep around) and figure out which need to get shown the door.

I will say everyone is doing their best and want to get you the resources to succeed and get out on the line. There's no instructors sitting around, slacking off, and allowing trainees to fail. It's just that not everyone has the skills and abilities to be a quality instructor and it's not immediately obvious until they start teaching that's the case.

I wouldn't go to C5 anymore, there's no advantage to their CPP and you've missed the wave unless you want to slave away as a DEC. If you're an FO you won't fly, if you're a DEC you'll be extended every trip, and when you do get a line there will be coverage awards halfway up the list giving you a 92hr min credit line with 12 off.
UA has made it clear on Aviate calls that they would not cripple the staffing at an airline by taking pilots for Aviate, so you're more likely to not be held back by a larger airline who can sort of staff (that isn't trying to grow in the toughest environment recruiters have ever had to work in).

That kind of goes for anyone in Aviate, they said they wouldn't take several CKAs in a row if it would hurt the express operation. So make sure you do absolutely nothing beyond the bare minimum, so you can move on to United as quickly as possible.

That’s funny because 7 LCP’s left XJT in one month this last August. They are hurting just as bad for LCP’s.

Maybe that's where they're getting this sentiment from. Since C5 has around 16 CKAs, and half are slated to leave in the next 6 mo, I'd say there's no reason to step up and put a target on your back to keep you from leaving.

Where is this information your stating coming from, is it first hand? Because I’m a DEC and my experience hasn’t even been close to this.

Because DEC is and always has been a pyramid scheme, you have to continously stuff more and more street captains under your seniority just to maintain QOL. As soon as people start upgrading ahead of you, you're gonna start continuously sliding backward unless you're really sure that these other jets are gonna materialize (even though we can't staff current fleet).
Reply again in another year and let's see how you feel on reserve with another 3 years on the horizon before line holding again. Also don't give us the "I'll be at United by then" because you won't; you're cannon fodder for the RJ first, a groomed coworker second.

Guy from my class is a street Capt and he already has 40 people below him on the Capt seniority list.

Pyramid scheme it is not. Plenty of 135 people and FO's from other regionals who arent prepared to wait years for upgrade.

So... Then NOT first hand? I'm sorry your experience here has been poor. Mine has not. I've held a high QOL line for the vast majority of my time here and it continues to improve. Hopefully yours does as well. I'm not too worried about any backslide as the majority of our seniority list has been here sub 2 years. The power of a small company with constant attrition.

I’m a DEC hired in the summer and have 20+ DEC’s below me and 12 more in training. Life is good at C5 for street CA’s

Odd that you bring up the "Reply again in another year" thing. Just go back over the message boards for the last 2 years and have a look. The answer has been proven that you are wrong.

Attrition at this company is high. Those on the top are constantly moving up and getting better jobs at major airlines. Also, add another 23 planes onto our current fleet and that is not only moving up, but also filling in the bottom.

And, we will be short FO's again sometime in the spring. The 2 or 3 that we are hiring in each class is not going to be enough to keep up with the amount of upgrades or those that are getting jobs with the LCC's or majors. Those that are sitting on reserve and not flying right now will be flying their butts off in 6 months which is a constant cycle at this company and proven if you go back and read these threads. And yes, we are still hiring FO's, but only a couple a class.

That’s because these forums are 99% bull crap. Mostly just fun to read. Your experience WILL vary. It’s all about attitude.

Yet you’re still at C5? I thought you would have left for UA via the CPP by now.

You know better than that. JB is all about truth and straight answers.......except that one.

The truth has been stated, but you just don't want to believe the truth. You want me to tell you that I got turned down by UA or that I made a mistake when I left XJT. Neither of those statements is true so I wont tell you that James.

I am very well liked at C5. I am getting my debt paid off that I accumulated while I wasted a decade at XJT as an FO taking care of my disabled child and his medical bills and paying off my medical bills from the drunk driver that tried to kill me (actually did but I came back). I stayed out of having to file bankruptcy due to the sucky XJT 2004 contract even with your sucky $1.50 raise by leaving XJT.

I made the mistake of not leaving earlier, because I continued to believe that XJT would turn the ship around even though I knew we were constantly being told a bunch of crap that wasn't true. I still have the pictures if you want me to post them.

Now that I am no longer there and am involved at C5, I see the 145's all getting parked in the next couple of years at XJT and it being an all 175 fleet that will have fewer planes flying than they currently have now. The new XJT boss is well known to come in and consolidate or close down airlines. XJT is not going to be closed down since UA is working to the final 4 regionals that will be flying for them. So that leaves him making XJT a one type fleet just like he did at C5 when he was here.

UA is going to be a pay cut for me for the next two to three years. I am getting my financial house in order and I am almost ready to make the switch. James, I would say that I will see you soon, but I don't plan on being LAX based.

You will be missed Jacburn. We have had a number of quality people from XJT.
In spite of some rough times early in the 145 transition, as a nonXJT guy it seems to me to have been a good thing for most who made the move to C5. The quality of the pilots who came here from XJT speaks well of ExpressJet. C5 has benefited from their presence.
Everyone is just trying to make a living and make the best of the cards that life deals them.

You sound like every lifer I ever flew with at XJT. First year pay for me at UA is a wash with my pay at Xjt (LCP over ride). You are giving up a ton of seniority, 16% DC and not being a subcontractor

So. Did you only read the two sentences you wanted to read from that whole thing?


Jacburn, you were a huge help to me at XJT and a fair opinion on the various topics we discussed.

Here’s a tidbit for the people attacking him, when I decided to come back, he didn’t try to push C5 on me. He gave me the fairest assessment possible and helped me choose something that fit my situation a bit more closely.

I did and I heard many a story. We all have a story, heck I have a story. I took a chance on coming to UA when I did. Seniority is the name of the game

Where can I see the current contracts?
 

Where can I view the current C5 and ZW contracts?

arwcontract.org for ZW

You all need to be focused on your back up career. For now, all of you are toast. The mainlines CANNOT get the majority of their fleet off the ground even if everything was opened tomorrow. They require a government letter of credit just to get fuel. Vendors are not going to float them 30 days at a time. American is in such dire straits with its 300% debt ratio that it will probably require a pre-packaged CH 11 while receiving PPP aid. The "alliances" of the big 3 are no more. That means the Euro. countries are NOT going to be paying American carriers to fly their passengers. Get the back up gig going NOW!

What backup gigs do you propose?

TRUMP CHECK depositor!

Some won’t be old enough to remember this skit, but it is from a time when SNL was actually funny.

It is very well known that XJT has one of the best AQP programs, not just among regionals, but in the country. If that's the most important thing for you, its definitely place to be.

True, nobody will be hiring for the foreseeable future though. The first to be hired will be prior 121 pilots with jet time who do not require $5k in ATP-CTP course. Money is tight. Those new hires to the industry should look at backups for a while.

AA’s position is not nearly as dire as you put it. Debt ratio is only one number and means nothing out of context. AA as more PE&E available to borrow agains than any other airline, a younger more fuel efficient fleet that does not need to be refreshed (unlike DAL and a lesser extent UAL) and while it has a high debt load, that debt is at extremely low rates and are do not have to be serviced for several more years. CH11 is not on the short to medium term outlook at any credible investment house you talk to. All airlines have a long term BK threat, but that is due to a second wave of COVID and the unknown about what the future will bring. DAL does have issues with its international partners. Virgin Atlantic is on the verge of bankruptcy. LATAM is hemorrhaging even after DALs cash infusion. Yes, things are bad, but not the doom and gloom you profess.

i dont think fuel-efficiency really matters when oil is selling in the teens per barrel, and will literally run out of space to go. many countries depend almost solely on their oil exports to prevent civil war, complete collapse, etc. Pumping aint gonna stop. All your other points are good.

VJIT would be a good backup schooling for the ladies.