Deicing Lear 60
 

Wondering if anyone would know the approximate cost to de-ice a Lear 60. We had our plane de-iced at KTEB recently and it was $7500.00. Seemed high, but was a first for me. They cleaned with Type I then applied Type IV. Probably wouldn't have done the Type IV if I knew how much it was since I was being overly cautious as the snow was subsiding at our departure time.

Cost us close to $9k for our Global Express @ TEB.

Sounds about right. Last time I did it was 6K for a beechjet, but wasn't at TEB.

Cost depends entirely on the quantity of gallons of glycol used, and I'd guess like most things there's a TEB premium.

If your plane had a lot of contamination on it, they are gonna burn through quite a bit Type I to get it clean...probably more than actually necessary, in honesty.

But hey, deicing is always cheaper than crashing...especially in a wing-critical airplane like a LR60.

May not have been an option for you, but I always found hangaring the plane, boarding inside the hangar, being pulled out and sprayed, then starting for departure to be WAAAAAAAAAAAY cheaper than letting the airframe get covered in ice/snow.

On a Citation, they would use between 20 & 100 gallons of fluid for each treatment of fluid (I or IV). Cost of the fluid is pretty standard across the country too.

There are two variables that determine the amount of fluid used: accumulation & spray technique. More snow/ice requires more fluid to remove. If the person applying the type I/IV has great aim, then there will be less overspray which will wastes less fluid. But since you don't have control of any of the variables, there isn't much you can do. Jets are expensive.

De-Ice
 

Once paid close to $30K to de-ice a Gulfstream in a central Asia country. No hangar available and it had quite a bit of accumulation of ice. Cheaper than the alternative.

My best was 60K on a C-5 and the mission cancelled! Which actually sounds cheap considering the size difference.


Gf

I have a visual of the band leader mouse brushing down Dumbo.

Thank you for the replies, I guess it was about the right price because the plane was covered with snow and it was snowing pretty good while they were de-icing and we were invoiced for about 250 gallons. Like one person mentioned, way better than crashing.🛫

Ha, ha! It was in Stuttgart; the Greens must have had a cow.

GF

Seriously??? And you are the D.O.????

Cost should not be a consideration.

Cost is always a consideration when running a business, in hindsight I probably didn't need the Type IV. Thanks anyway fort your unwanted opinion.

I completely agree cost is alwyas a consideration, however you said the snow was "subsiding" closer to your departure time. If there is any precip still falling type IV is still a must because type I provides little to no holdover. There are times that cost needs to go out the window. IMHO the boss can afford the Lear, he can afford the glycol. But i understand your instinct to want to save cost, really i do!

I'm amazed that someone can be a D.O. and Lear 60 PIC and never deiced before. I guess that is the pilot shortage for ya.

All I was asking for wa the approximate cost as I have never de-iced before, I fully agree safety comes first. We obviously had the option to depart later or the next day for that matter. I've been flying for over 40 years and yes never de-iced before as all of my flying has been in the south and Caribbean. After reading some of the post apearently the cost was reasonable. Also some of the respondents feel they are Gods gift to aviation and feel compelled to insert their unwanted opinions without even knowing all the facts. Thank you for your reply.

You didn’t ask for opinions but you did start the thread. Don’t take offense, take it as a life lesson with very little tact involved. You said yourself you have never had experience deicing, now you know if it’s snowing you absolutely must de-ice AND anti-ice. It costs what it costs. Literally the only alternative is cancelling the trip. Fly safe.

If you're not familiar with de-icing anti-icing procedures these are the goto documents that you need.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/.../AC_135-17.pdf

and

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...overTables.pdf

The latter one being updated annually.

The rule of thumb is that type 1 is used to clear the aircraft of buildup while type 4 is used in during active icing. So even during light snowfall you need to use type 4.

From a 121 perspective, even the cheapest regional airline won't bat an eye spending money on full body type 1 & 2.

FFD airlines typically don't pay the deicing bill, either.

That being said, there are circumstances when you can easily just get sprayed with Type I and depart in light snow within Generic Type I holdover times.

TEB ain't one of those circumstances.

Thanks for the reply, I understand the de-icing procedures Type I for de-ice and Type IV for anti-ice and what we did by applying Type I to clean the aircraft and Type IV to depart was exactly what we should have done. We probably didn't need the Type IV as we departed about 5 minutes after the cleaning and the snow had almost subsided. The application of the Type IV was purely better safe than sorry. My question was simply how much should it cost as I was quite surprised with the $7500.00 tab never have experiencing a de-icing before, that's it. What some implied about being the DO or a Lear Pilot and never de-icing before is beyond me, I don't understand what that has to do with anything, I've been flying over 40 years and yes I still learn something almost daily. I guess I can only aspire to know as much as them and be as perfect as them. I truly do appreciate the replies from all that took the time to answer my original question, as for the unwanted opinions from the know it all meatheads, they can take a hike.

Considering that the generic type 1 tables only allow for 7-22 HOT's (depending on the temperature) for very light snowfall, I'd say that it pretty much precludes use as an anti ice agent.

What if you can depart within 7 minutes?

Those rules of thumb apply to 121 more than 135/91 at smaller class D & G airports. As a previous poster stated Type I often has 5-20 minute hold over times, that is more than enough time to depart from the airports business jets operate from. When I did charter, I would typically de-ice (Type I) about 5-10 times a year and anti-ice (Type IV) twice.

Five minutes is “more than enough time”? Do you realize your HOT starts at the beginning of fluid application? Unless you’re deicing a 172 from a cherry picker on the runway it ain’t happening. And at TEB, forget about it.

Geez, people, if you can’t stand in front of the boss and be proud of your decision to spend some of his money to keep him (and more importantly, you) safe then seek employment elsewhere.

There are a ton of variables, and the advantage to being on this side of the fence is that you can make a logical decision, vs flying for an airline and having to do everything by the book. There are advantages to both.

WWYD if the ATIS is reporting freezing rain, its 0*, and nothing is sticking to the airplane cause its nice and warm cause you just pulled it out of the hangar? Coat the airplane in $10k worth of de-ice fluid, or fire her up and go?

Freezing rain? Jet in a heated hangar? 0F?

You get a splash of Type I since you'll get some precip on the airplane after pulling out, and Type 4 because you're in freezing rain.

But since you were in a hangar, you won't need dozens if not hundreds of gallons of Type I to get contamination off the airframe prior to applying Type IV.

At my previous job, at home base in a similar circumstances, we would spray Type IV on wings/tail in the heated hangar, load up in the hangar, pull out, fire up and go. Total time from exiting the hangar to wheels-up, maybe 5-6 minutes.

No contamination on the airframe in a heated hangar so no need for Type I...and spraying the Type IV yourself, you could ensure complete coverage on critical surfaces without totally wasting fluid and/or creating a GIGANTIC mess.

Different ways to SAFELY skin this cat...but if the jet is outside covered in frozen stuff, you're gonna need a lot of Type I to get it off regardless.

You can flame me if you want, but this type of thinking is why the Corporate accident rate is as high as it is.

Oh yeah? What is the last corporate jet to crash due to ground icing that was flown by a professional crew?

Challenger Montrose with Dick Ebersol?

So 14 years ago, and it was an airplane very sensitive to freezing precip. Quite the high accident rate.

I’ve been on both sides of the fence multiple times. After I first worked for a company that had an FAA approved ground icing program and went back to 91 to run a flight department I always asked myself...if it was a good idea then, why wouldn’t it be a good idea now? If the only variable was money I spent that stuff like it was growing on the trees.

And to answer your question...if it’s freezing rain I’m spraying the Type IV even if the airplane is steaming or I’m canceling the trip. Up to the boss. Since I don’t have a chart for calculating the thermal retention of aluminum I have no idea how long I have before the freezing rain starts to stick. A good friend once told me, “don’t write the first line of the accident report.” You wanted logic, that’s as logical as it gets in my opinion.

I'm not just referring to icing accidents.

I'm referring to the "cost" issue being a greater consideration in Corporate/Charter versus Part 121, in all aspects. (hiring/training/operation)

Of course I realize that airlines are cheap, and are often forced to spend $$$ because the FAA mandates it.

250 gallons for a Lear 60?!?!?!?!

I've decided an Airbus A300 that had 6inches of layered ice and snow covering it and between 6 trucks working it, we didn't even spray 1000 gallons combined.

I said the hold over times were 5-20 minutes. I never said I would use a 5 min hold over time. It isn't that difficult. Start timing the moment they start spraying and if the finish quickly enough and you can depart right away, simply tell them over the radio to cancel the Type IV.

You might actually look up the corporate jet accident rate, before posting. Comparing professionally flown Part 91 jets and the airlines, the rates are not very different.

https://www.nbaa.org/ops/safety/stats/

The fatal rate, not so much.

0.00 vs. 0.01, it’s a rounding error. You make it sound like bizjets are crashing all the time. There hasn’t been a fatal hull loss in the G550/Global fleet (1500-ish delivered) in nearly 20 years.

What’s your corporate experience?

GF

Not quite. You used 2014 data which is partial year. The last year of full data is 2013 and the corporate fatal rate is nearly 5 times higher.

Go back 10 or 20 years of data, and Corporate is much higher, on average. Corporate is much better than GA rate but that is not saying much.

I just like to stir the pot. My point is merely that at part 121, de-icing cost is not a concern of the pilots. At Corporate, it may be. When cost becomes a concern, safety can suffer.

BTW, I am MIL and 121 background, and have never ever given any consideration to the cost of de-icing in 25+ years of professional flying.

Then, you’re just hanging out on the corporate forum to troll professionals and feel superior. Got it.

Here, Mil, 121 long-gone legacy and corporate; I’ve been there in all three.

GF

Yes, you got it. Except the facts support my thesis.

And then you might read this, statistics are tricky things. The problem is when the number of accidents is small (numerator) and the flight hours (divisor) is also small, a couple of accidents make the rate look worse. As I said, the hull losses of professionally flown corporate jets is very small.

I’m just asking you take a more open-minded view of a segment of aviation you admit you have no experience in. I’ve flown corporate with many happy and safe former airline pilots.

https://www.ainonline.com/sites/aino...dfs/safety.pdf