Making a schedule: QOL
 

Collecting data and ideas here.
Lear 45 operating under a management company, part 91 flying. To become 135 this summer/fall. 5% utilization will be 135 flying.
Right now there are 2 pilots flying 300-350 hrs/yr. Looking at the data to justify hiring a 3rd pilot in 6 months. Thinking 2 PIC and 1 SIC.
What is the best schedule everyone has found to run a operation like this? What are the hrs/yr where you find a 3rd pilot justifiable?

3rd pilot
 

It really isn’t just about flight hours. My company does about 300 hours per year with 2 pilots. In reality it is about 300 hours in less than a year because the plane is down for maintenance for at least 7 weeks. We do a LOT of short legs that are 20-40 minutes. Getting in 300 hours is rough that way. On the other hand, if you are getting the same amount of time, but are flying 4 hour legs, the “work” goes by in larger chuncks. Unfortunately, when we do longer legs, we often pay for it with sitting around a hotel for several days at a time. What kind of flying do you guys primarily do? I wish we had an additional guy, but with smaller 1 airplane companies it is often difficult to get them to sign off on that. We do hire contract guys when the need arises. That might be a way to get you some breathing room on the part 91 flights.

We mostly do the east coast flying. PHL- APF and a few flights to the west coast a year. Our average leg is 2 hours.
I am looking at numbers like this:
A Contract guy is roughly $1000/day. Each pilot we have is allowed 14 days PTO. That’s 28 days @ 1,000/day for a contract guy. $28000.
Trying to find another $20k in expenses is going to be tough to bring up to the management company to justify hiring a 3rd guy. Any suggestions?

Draft up the cost of utilizing contract on an at-will basis, cost of hiring a third pilot (SIC) and also draft up the cost of the revolving door.
The cost of continuously training and hiring will far exceed either of the first two options.

What about days away at training for each of you?

Good thought except that adding a 3rd guy would incur the added training cost as well. I see where the contract guy would be necessary for those days of being at training.

Yes it certainly will. It is cheaper to retain a pilot than it is to hire new. I am becoming disgruntled because I cannot plan anything that I want to do. I hear the regionals schedules are good at planning ahead. :D

And there you have your answer. Tell your boss you need to hire a 3rd pilot so you can go to a 2 weeks on 1 week off schedule.

If he says no find another job. Why waste time on a silly presentation, graphs, and excel spreadsheets. Easier to get another job where they already have this and let him spend the time figuring it out on his own.

In my experience watching many friends go through this there are two types of owners/ flight depts. Those that are out front of it and those that are behind.

Those that are out front will change their tact with a 10-20 min conversation about where the industry is and where it's going.

Then there are those that aren't. For those it seems no matter how many graphs, charts, spreadsheets, statistics, etc you present and how much sense you make they will fight it tooth and nail through massive turnover stepping over $100 bills to pick up pennys. Who wants to work there when there are so many options?

Do yourself a favor. Have a 10-20 min conversation with the boss. If he doesn't get it start firing out the resume and save yourself the agony.

Billsaw,
Awesome advice and thank you. A conversation is coming soon.
I needed statistics to show the boss so he sees it on paper as well.
50% increase in working days in the months Sept-Dec 2018 than last year.

No problem. Just don't waste too much of your time trying to convince him. After your conversation if he doesn't ok it just move on.

It's kinda sad but I have seen it all. Great owners you love to work for but they just don't wanna pay. Whether it's higher salaries or increasing the number of pilots or both (which both is usually the case nowadays) it all boils down to money. They don't wanna spend it. The usual excuse is "but you only work three days a week, maybe 4. How hard is that?"

Problem is your on call. On call means no life.

Sad part is most of the time you will have to quit and go somewhere else to get the raise or the lifestyle or both. Then later your old guy will change his tune and his compensation package and you may have wish you woulda stayed. Don't. If you would've stayed he never would have changed it. He wouldn't need to. I'm not saying don't go back under the new deal just don't beat yourself up for the switch. That is the only thing that provokes the change. If nobody leaves, no reason for them to change.

But in this new environment it seems it shouldn't be too hard to find what your looking for. Either he get's it or or he doesn't. Well the dirty secret is he gets it. He just ain't gonna change until he has too.

It's easy to tell what your boss thinks of you. They will put a $ sign on it because that's how businessmen value everything. Nothing wrong with it but it's how it works and your a line item most of the time at the end of the day.

Compensation is not just a dollar amount paid to you but how many he hires so you can have a life all totaling up to a dollar amount to him.

How much he spends on you guys personally and collectively will show you precisely what he thinks of you.

If he spends more on you than the competition would he thinks highly of you.

If he spends the same as the competition you are just a cog in the wheel and he is keeping the machine running.

If he spends less. Well you know what he thinks.

Seeing as how every flight department is going to 3 and 4 pilots per plane if he refuses you have your answer on what he thinks of you. So as nice or as cool as he may be don't waste your time on him as it has a 98% chance of being fruitless and frustrating.

Just go find the job where the guy gets it.

Oh and if you want statistics forget about that. Just print up 5 job adds where they are stacking planes 3 or 4 pilots deep. Usually the ads say just that "3 pilot account". Just sorta say in a gentle way this is where the market is. What your really saying is match it or I'll join em.

Awesome post, billsaw! We went to 5/plane, had guaranteed days off and post-trip time off. In an international operation with high Ops tempo, 5 is just enough.

GF

Thanks. Having watched many friends go through this same story at many different operations it just becomes disheartening to watch. Especially since the same two basic scenarios play out over and over.

The real sad part is the operations with potential that lose their really good guys only to switch positions to late in the game and the flight departments go down the tubes big time. They end up replacing great guys with substandard ones in some cases at more than the good ones wanted to stay.

In the end it seems if they can't be talked into changing in 10-20 min you won't do it in 2 or 3 years until the good guys hit the door and the place falls apart. Hence my position on not wasting too much time on them. My buddies that got more money or better conditions did it in one meeting. The ones who didn't hung around for years trying to convince them with all the data to come up with either nothing or maybe some empty promises about what they "intend to do" only to quit mad at themselves for wasting so much time trying.

The reality now with the airlines these private and corporate flight departments are in for a real surprise. If they so much as blink in a year or so at a raise there won't be anyone around to hire at any price....

I just had a few beers and wings with the guys that used to work for me and the new chief pilot. Operators are throwing stupid money around in the Northeast. A Global just got crewed at $260k+; but, I asked the kicker—how many pilots on a managed and chartered plane? Two. I then pointed out the potential QOL issues and the owner was buying pilot’s lives. Great money, being away or on-call 365, not worth it.

GF

What was his reaction when you told him (or implied) that a senior NB FO at a legacy could earn almost that much, but working just 12-15 days?

I'm afraid I kind of know, but I hope I'm wrong

This might surprise you, but guys that got kicked around at regionals, have kids going to college, bills to pay, taking 260-280k is good money and don’t want an airline job. They have their eyes open, know their options—it’s their choice. I know lots of guys flying large bizjets totally uninterested in the airlines. Horses for courses.



Gf

Actually that kinda sucks. As recently as one year ago it was good but times are a changing. I have had several buddies hired both in the northeast and the west coast for almost that money on 4 pilot planes. When I say almost I mean 240k plus bonuses. This is all within the last 6-8 months. So 260k to be the property of someone is not good money at all.

Owners on these particular jets got tired of the turnover and substandard pilots the management company was getting and threw in the towel. Give me 4 guys and pay them was the owners edict. It's funny that the management companies try to drive down the cost and find the cheapest guys they can until the owners get ****ed and throw money at the problem.

It doesn't matter anyway at this point and I hear your comment about guys that have no interest in the airlines. Problem for owners that want to "own" you is there are not enough guys that "will never" go to the airlines to crew (captain) the biz jets. So they will either compete in the future or park em. It really is that simple.

Here is another look into the crystal ball straight from somebody calling the shots.

Management companies know there is a pilot shortage coming and the airlines are gonna take from them.

"Management" cannot and should not admit it generally speaking because then the pilots "will know" they are in the drivers seat. Not that they don't already but when and if management lets it out that there is a problem that's when pilots turn from whiners about stuff to demanding. Big difference.

They also know that crewing aircraft deeper only makes the problem worse. There are "X" number of business aircraft operating and "Y" number of pilots. The "Y" number is getting smaller for several reasons. The "X" number will grow with the economy. That in and of itself is a problem. Add to it the fact they have to start giving people a life and crewing the X's with more Y's and well you see the problem. There ain't enough Y's.

They know it but will not and should not admit it. So guys look for management to attempt to squeeze more out of you in the name of "helping" out as things get worse. The last thing they want to do is crew planes deeper. They would much rather throw a few dollars at you.

If you really want to fix the problem demand they hire more pilots for time off. The pay will follow and soon you will be making what the airline guys make with a life to boot. If you take the money you just drag it out longer.

billsaw,

I asked about QOL, didn’t get a definite answer as the conversation was second hand. 260-280 is pretty strong money IF it’s a 3 or 4 pilot operation with little or no chartering. At least, in my experience as a NE Chief Pilot, but times are rapidly changing. The pilots I know at private equity groups have mostly 2 weeks on and either 1 week off or 2 weeks off. One friend has had the summer off as they do an 8C check. Another has a 30 minute commute, flies, at most ten days a month for 275.

As has been said, there 10% great ones, probably 30% near-great and everything else. Gulfstream/Globals are the only deal likely to be decent, in my experience—stable owners, pre-planned schedules, no last minute calls. I did 12 years at one and had 3 last minute calls due to pilot family emergencies. They bailed me out a couple of times, so it balances out.

GF

Exactly. Management company is the issue here with me too. Mentioned it to them 3 times in the past year of me being employed with this company. Great respect for the owner but its out of his hands and into the management company.

14 days PTO allowed, I put in for a request for 7 off in November and it gets kicked back to me that I can only do 4 days because of a trip booked. Told me I should have requested sooner. This was August when I requested it. I just dont get it and what PTO really means if you cant use it to plan something. We never get pop ups but also I will only be home for a totally of 6 days this month of September.

Seen a lot of guy get fed up and go to the airlines for the predictable lifestyle and schedule. Ive thought about it myself but I wouldn't have fun there I know it.

You might not have gotten his bid vacation depending on seniority, either. I actually found bidding vacation only to have it cancelled one of the worst aspects of airline flying. I agree he should have received his full vacation request. Maybe because my department was led by ex-mil guys where excepting wars leave was always granted, vacation was approved as requested 98% of the time. In rare cases, we’d negotiate a mutually acceptable deal or contract.

GF

Going through a very similar situation with our Lear 40. 2 pilot crew, owners are great as far as 91 trips go, letting us know in advance and they are always short trips and always weekdays.

However, they use a large management company that is 135 which expects us to be on call 24/7 and balks at any and all requests for paid time off, with 0 guaranteed days off.

We have been trying to convince the owners to either change management companies or drop it all together, but the owners don't seem to care too much.

Sad thing is we both enjoy working for the owners, but the management company has us both looking for other jobs.

As soon as the owner goes 135 and the mgt company starts running charters, it’s all over. Friends of mine fly for a big NY PE owner, very happy as to work and schedule. Then, they went to a mgt company, dark clouds gathered, but only a few charters were flown, all close friends. Still, after a year or two, they went back to private ownership, it proved cheaper. Four pilots, two techs, work 2 on, 2 off. All good, they know their schedule a year out.


GF

We are in the exact same boat here. Management company tells us the only guaranteed days off are the 14 PTO days a year. We were running with 6 pt91 dry leases for the past year. 350hours just that alone for the owner and his family.
We were just 135 official 2 weeks ago. They say minimal charter but we will see. So, when do I have my 13 guaranteed days off now? Did you get your defined 13 off? When no trips are on the calendar and just sitting at home?
Its not the flight hours that hurt this job. I dont mind 350-400 a year. The days on the road is what hurts. On a 9 day trip now and a 15 day trip at the end of this month. Management company doesn't see an issue with it

260-280 is strong money if it's a 4 pilot operation and in your off time your NOT on call period. Not even for the odd ball well once a year crap.

260-280 is not good money (to me at least) on a 2 pilot aircraft or if you spend your off time on call. Many will choose the airlines and a life "they" control not their boss. Some will not. It's safe to say not enough will not.

Bottom line is if management companies and owners don't want to be faced with a real crewing issue they better get off their tails and compete hard with the airlines before they drain the pool. Once it's empty it will be real hard to refill.

That means paying top dollar, having a schedule, and not messing with pilots when they are off which is huge. It doesn't matter whether they understand this or not. They will be forced to the hard way if they don't.

Your department was staffed properly to enable this. As we know with 2 pilots per plane there is no one to take up the slack.

The sad part is Fookz92 is that even if you would have requested leave in March for time off in November they would have approved it only to cancel it in September because the trip popped up and they have no coverage. Same ole story.... Seen it plenty of times. The management company is gonna tell you that you can't have your vacation long before they tell the owner he can't have his.....

If your staffed properly you can figure it out. If not welcome to slavery.

We are never sure when our days off are. The 135 DO expects us on call for 14 hours EVERY day, though we are never sure when that 14 starts or ends. As far as the required days off go, the DO will go back and count any day we didn't fly as "time off" even though we were on call, which isn't technically legal per part 135

No that isn't legal. I had that sorta company that did that a few yers ago. Since then, the FAA has made it VERY clear in the regs.
Also with the 14 hours that you dont when it starts or stops? Thats also illegal with the rolling rest. We haven't come across that yet but I have a feeling its coming.

Yes, I feel like a slave.

Have no fear good times are coming!

I'm not knocking you guys personally, but WHY would anyone put up with such nonsense when the airlines are hiring like gangbusters??

This is the best pilots market we've had in DECADES! WHY tolerate this?

Sure, maybe it'd be hard to get on with one of the "big 3" immediatly, but worse case, certainly one of the LCC's like Spirit or even JB would scoop you up in a heartbeat I'd imagine

True! I never considered myself the airline type of guy. I like being more personable with the pax and always going to new destinations. Not operating like a machine flying another machine. Im at 2500TT. Just sent my app in the AA tonight just as a long shot. Would be nice to skip the regionals since I would take a major pay cut. But its beginning to come onto my radar because you are correct.... I DONT need to put up with this.

Good start but I'd cast my net wider and put my app into ALL of the "big 6" plus Allegiant, Spirit, JB, Alaska (NOT Frontier though!) as well as the better ACMI's like Katallia.

I'd also not rule out regionals that have DEC possibilities, or very short (less than 6 month) upgrades for those with eligible time (which it sounds like you do).

I'm unfortunately only 5 months in to a 12 month training contract, so unless I can find a Regional that will pay off whats left of what I owe, I'm stuck till April of next year

I've got 3500 TT, past 121 experience, and a fair amount of Turbine PIC, thinking about applying with the LCC's and some of the better regionals, though I'd hate to take that pay cut

What type are you flying for the contract?


Gf

Its a Lear 45 type, flying a 40

I generally advocate not burning bridges, but in this case I'd say screw that contract. Most of them are not worth the paper they're written on. And if they're running an operation that's "illegal" in terms of 135 rest rules anyway, I'm pretty sure they'd not want to bring in a bright light in terms of a bunch of legal action so would probably just be happy to let you slip out the door.

As was stated above, cast a wide net with your apps, you'll get some traction somewhere.

im telling you we are in the same sinking boat together. Im 2 months into my 12 month contract as well. Attorney looking at contract to see if I can get out.
On another note that regional pay cut hurts. Just looked over at piedmonts forum on here.... 8 year flow through. :eek:
10 month back for training. No way.... go for the big boys or go home.

Just quote the FAR 117 rules on crew rest and standby duty, then ask if they’d like to speak with their POI on the subject.

GF

That will do it.

Pilot Shortage Is Real and Getting Worse | NBAA 2018 content from Aviation Week

The same story over and over at this point it's like a broken record. Corporate flight departments wondering where they are gonna get people.

This is so simple it should be embarrassing. Pay what the airlines pay and give a schedule. So 1 week on, one week off Netjets and others already do it so it's not some new phenomenon.

Then Pay like the airlines so 300k a year and then nobody will leave.

Until then lets write some more articles about why people are leaving $150,000 a year jobs while being treated like slaves to take jobs making $300,000 and being treated like humans with time off to spend with their family.

"Gee Mr. VP of aviation I just can't understand why they all keep leaving?"

"Well Mr. CEO me neither I mean we let them stay in $100 a night hotels when we go to New York......"

Simplest problem with the simplest solution and the longer all these companies wait to get on board with the solution the worse the problem gets because the smaller the pool will be and the more it will cost them.

Ah that’s why they are CEO’s. If every dept had people leaving, they would be broke. Until someone doesn’t apply, same old same old.