Small time company - small plane
 

Looking for a plane for a small company. 300-400 hours a year, lots of short hops (less than 100 NM) with a monthly 500-800 NM trip. Typically one passenger and the pilot, occasionally up to four pax plus pilot. The owner seems to be looking for sub-200K, max of $250, which I think is a ridiculous budget considering but regardless.

I was thinking a Malibu would be a great fit but unsurprisingly they're well over 200 for anything decent.

Any suggestions from someone who has done corporate shopping before?

Added: it's going to be a lower time pilot, so nothing Aerostar-ish. And it'll be Texas based so air conditioning is a must.

The two types of trips are vastly different. A Cessna 182 or Piper Dakota would easily for the first but not for the second. In the realm of singles, a Piper Saratoga or Lance would work nicely but with Pipers you're sitting on the floor (ie low seats). A Cessna 206 or 210 would work too. If you're looking at twins, there are more options. A Piper Seneca II or even up to a Cessna 340 but operating costs are a lot higher too. An old school Piper Twin Commanche might be a good balance of fuel economy, range and useful load...

There are a lot of answers to your question and the cheapest one might be to rent a limo for the 100 mile trips and charter a Citation for the longer trips.

C9

Yeah I know what you mean. I'm doing this as a favor to a friend, and hearing the owner's desires with his budget is interesting to say the least. Makes me wonder how he'll handle unexpected maintenance that pops up.

Example, he wants to not wear headsets. In a piston airplane. I don't know many pistons that are that quiet.

I was thinking a Seneca might be decent. A II or III. Relatively low fuel burns, well supported, aft door, reasonable speed for the longer hops without being too brutal on the engines on the short hops.

Not wearing headsets in any small airplane is not picnic. Even pressurized King Airs are uncomfortale.

If he is a CEO, etc and carries personal insurance, you may need to see what he needs to be covered. Many companies require specifics (multi engine, turbine, 2 pilots). Obviously there is a reason insurance companies require this for personal AD&D coverage...so consider that.

The market is right for an small airplane. $200k will go a long way, especially if he can write a check to a bank. Lots of repossessed aircraft out there, and good equipment too.

If you buy a desireble aircraft, it will hold it's value much better than others. If it were my butt in the airplane...

Multi-Engine Favorite: 58 Baron - $200k or less - but I would make sure my "low-time" pilot was sharp and I might run him through a training event either at a sim facility or better off with an experienced pilot that would go along for a few runs.

...and a very, very, very distant second.

Single-Engine Favorite: Cherokee 6/300 - 6 seats, 300hp, single-engine. 15 of them on trade-a-plane for around $100k.

Not wear headsets? Look for a pressurized aircraft then. Cessna P210. Great aircraft, but I personally would not go that route. Most of us still wear active noise cancelling in jets...

Single pilot, four passengers, up to 800nm trips, and no headsets for absolutely no more than $250k. The CEO sounds like he has filet taste and a ground chuck budget...not entirely uncommon.

He needs to have his expectations adjusted back to reality...again, not entirely uncommon. Even if he can afford the plane at $200-250k, can he afford to operate it? After all, if he doesn't operationally budget for anything other than fuel expense he's going to have a rude awakening when it needs maintenance or when annual time rolls around.

Our company operates a Cirrus SR22 in addition to a jet...and while its often used as a short range <150nm shuttle it also sees 500-600nm trips pretty regularly. Good plane for one pilot and one passenger over that length trip, but one pilot and two pax can start squeezing range...especially if the folks are bigger than 180lb average or there is much in the way of baggage.

Ours is a 2007 G2 that is loaded with options...AC, oxygen, TKS, everything but the turbo. Our full-fuel payload is about 440lbs, but an airplane without TKS would send that number up quite a bit. From an efficiency/operating cost standpoint, its hard to beat 165kts @ 13gph (flown lean of peak) in a SE piston.

Within the aforementioned budget, a 2002-2005 SR22 should be considered (assuming 4 pax + pilot isn't a necessity), otherwise for six seat capability A36, B58, Seneca II/III or late-model Aztec, or Cessna 310R or 340. But everything has tradeoffs...payload, range, operating cost, etc etc.

Good luck!

Thank you all.

Boiler, well put. I said champagne tastes on a beer budget, but you got it. I am particularly interested in the Cirruses (Cirri?) after reading your post. Economical, fast, great equipment, good engine. Do you fly the Cirrus as well? Your thoughts on it?

Yeah I fly our Cirrus...from the Louisville area to MYNN and back this past weekend, in fact. Not a typical trip, but "a hell of a lot better than Delta" according to my private pilot boss :D

It is a GREAT airplane for a what it is - a single-engine piston. It is comfortable even with 4 adults in the cabin. Our Cirrus is personally owned by the company founder/owner/President/CEO/grand poobah. About 3 years ago we started using it for company staff after we got insurance sorted out, and use it about 200-250hr/yr on top of the 300+ our CJ2+ flies. It would fly more if it were approved for known ice.

Lots of our work is in small towns away from airline service, and 4-6 hour drives from our main office. We can fly the Cirrus 1-1.5hr and land 3 miles from the client, which makes our staff a LOT more productive, which keeps the bossman happy. Our plane also makes a lot of trips to Louisiana, and the air conditioning makes the plane bearable on the ground during summer but it ain't ice cold.

The airplane's safety record is spotty, but its due to the poor airmanship & decisionmaking of overconfident, low-time owner/pilots than issues with the airplane itself. Its not C182 forgiving, but it doesn't bite. Plus, "it has the chute" which, for better or worse, does placate some flyers nervous about "small prop planes".

I'd rather be flying a Meridian for more speed & pressurization, but the Cirrus is a great "short hop" airplane with the ability to go further.

Does seem like it would be a good fit for this company, primarily the boss who is a bigger guy. Hard to beat a 2005 model airplane within the price range, that's a huge improvement over a 70-something with who knows what history.

Okay, I'm gonna get blasted on this one but...Skymaster 337. Perfect for the low time pilot/owner/operator. I used to fly one for a machine shop when I was in college and the owner flew it himself about 30 hours a year. At least I didn't have to worry about it rolling over on him when he lost an engine!

Couple of quirks - the rear engine can overheat because of quirky cowl flaps, and the gear has a ton of actuators that need to be kept tweaked but overall I really like the airplane. At gross on a cool day you can eek about a 150 fpm climb on just the rear one. If you lose the rear one, find a spot to land.

I owned a flight school in MI in the late 90's and since I had gathered a bunch of time in these things the Detroit FSDO sent all those needing "training" in the 337 my way. So I got to see quite a few of them - good, bad, & ugly. I would buy one but my wife thinks they're ugly.

Only thing quiet enough for no headsets is a turbine. Except the cost of the turbine alone is more than 250k LOL . So, I guess you could buy the new Breitling sponsored flying man suit....jk... But, in reality he has a lot of demands for what he's budgeting. Welcome to business and corporate, right? However, i'd say a non-pressurized Piper Navajo. It has A/C optional, and it has seating for 8 total plus a porta-potty option, or a 9th seat and no porta-potty... Insurance wise you'd probably have to have 2 pilots obviously with Commercial AMEL's. Throw the idea his way, see what he has to say. Otherwise, if you want a single...... i'll think on this one...

A typical rule of thumb is to buy the airplane that is the right airplane for 80% of your trips, and charter for the remainder. In this case, I would recommend that you charter for the longer trips, and buy for the remainder. Of course, this depends on what is available for charter in your area.

Oh, and with a little over 600 hours in Skymasters, the last airplane that I would recommend is a C337. :)

Grab a Dakota I loved mine honest 4 place airplane with a decent cruise speed to boot. You can get your hands on one for 75k-100k and the motor is bullet proof. I think A/C was an option and most on the market at least have a semi decent stack of radios in them.

Well you're really not gonna like this one then because my other "baby" is the MU-2! That one I would discourage however. Although, some budget conscious buyer is going to go "wow, a turbine for 250K, I'm in!":eek:

That would be perfect for a "lower time pilot". ;)

Thank you all. I still haven't made much headway in the cost versus capability department, but am hoping to make some progress this weekend and pass it off to the pilot by the end of the week. Doing this for free is only so fun. :rolleyes:

A single piston would be ideal for the majority of the "estimated" trips, and the cirrus is a good airframe, just the people flying them mucking that up. You can find an Archer with air also, but giving up a lot of speed, but wouldn't make 5 min difference on most of those short trips.

Chartering might sound expensive, but it's cheaper than owning more airplane than you need. Also, should give the bossman an idea of what it might cost to own.

Having flown charter at one point in a Seneca II, I would say the Seneca makes a great machine for the low cost it takes to operate one etc., The fuel burn per hour is impressively efficient for sure, at least ours was! You can definitely find one right now for under 250 at least!

Yeah, that is EXACTLY what went though the mind of my boss 2 years ago! And he wanted to restore it, with new paint and a glass cockpit and all this stuff....well that didn't last long, just long enough for me to get 280 hours in it and then it went bye-bye. But now I can say I flew an MU-2 and survived. :D

206H
 

• Drop the air conditioning idea. Ineffective in this weight class. Just get one of those ice chests with a fan in it.
• Drop the no headset idea, another silly idea. Spend 5k on headsets.

Advantages of a 206H.

• reliable
• fairly up to date
• can carry up to 6 people with a decent amount of luggage
• fast enough to be useful (especially the turbo model)
• low insurance mins
• easy to fly
• short field performance is excellent
• prices are around $250-300k for a nice used one
• comfortable to climb in & out of
• high wing config is nice for shade and visibility

Southwest,, maybe American,,, shouldnt need any headsets... well maybe for the movie... Not the best route but way inder the Budget

I have a client I fly with that bought a 2008 Garmin 1000 C182 brand new in 2008 and threw in an after market installed A/C. Worth every pound of that 100lb reduction in useful load in the Texas heat!:rolleyes:

I will mention that when taking off with 3 occupants at Winslow, AZ (4941 MSL)in August with a surface temp of 35C, remember to turn it off for takeoff :mad:

I have time in Texas summers with a late-model 206Hes with the Keith system & I heartily do not recommend them.

• the registers are on the floor
• the ducting is exposed and takes up space
• system has to be shut down for takeoffs/ go arounds
• adds cost, weight, complexity
• may not cool adequately anyway
• limits your choice of used airframes

Just tell your passengers they'll get all the cold air they want at the top of the climb.

I wouldn't fly a Cirrus in the South without air conditioning.

I know a bunch of Turbo owners say you don't "need" AC because the airplane climbs very well into the upper teens where the air is cooler...but for <150nm trips its pretty much a necessity, especially if somebody expects to get out of the airplane in 90 degree weather and head to a business meeting without first showering/cleaning up and changing clothes.

Its also mighty damn uncomfortable on the ground, even taxiing with the doors open and power pushed up for additional airflow.

Now, I have no idea how effective the portable Arctic Air ice chest setups are...that might provide the best of both worlds in terms of maintaining useful load when you don't need it and being cool when you do need it, but they look like they take up a fair bit of baggage space which may or may not be a concern.

One of hangar mates has a C310 that he uses the Artic Air in and it works so well in the Louisiana heat and humidity that he is installing a Keith AC system in a few weeks.

His typical trip is 175nm and he says "the the ice box just doesn't cut it".

B36! Easily under 250k...used of course