Small time company - small plane
05-08-2012, 07:47 PM
#1
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Joined APC: May 2011
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 949
Small time company - small plane
Looking for a plane for a small company. 300-400 hours a year, lots of short hops (less than 100 NM) with a monthly 500-800 NM trip. Typically one passenger and the pilot, occasionally up to four pax plus pilot. The owner seems to be looking for sub-200K, max of $250, which I think is a ridiculous budget considering but regardless.
I was thinking a Malibu would be a great fit but unsurprisingly they're well over 200 for anything decent.
Any suggestions from someone who has done corporate shopping before?
Added: it's going to be a lower time pilot, so nothing Aerostar-ish. And it'll be Texas based so air conditioning is a must.
I was thinking a Malibu would be a great fit but unsurprisingly they're well over 200 for anything decent.
Any suggestions from someone who has done corporate shopping before?
Added: it's going to be a lower time pilot, so nothing Aerostar-ish. And it'll be Texas based so air conditioning is a must.
05-09-2012, 05:19 AM
#2
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: B717 FO
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The two types of trips are vastly different. A Cessna 182 or Piper Dakota would easily for the first but not for the second. In the realm of singles, a Piper Saratoga or Lance would work nicely but with Pipers you're sitting on the floor (ie low seats). A Cessna 206 or 210 would work too. If you're looking at twins, there are more options. A Piper Seneca II or even up to a Cessna 340 but operating costs are a lot higher too. An old school Piper Twin Commanche might be a good balance of fuel economy, range and useful load...
There are a lot of answers to your question and the cheapest one might be to rent a limo for the 100 mile trips and charter a Citation for the longer trips.
C9
There are a lot of answers to your question and the cheapest one might be to rent a limo for the 100 mile trips and charter a Citation for the longer trips.
C9
05-09-2012, 05:46 AM
#3
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Yeah I know what you mean. I'm doing this as a favor to a friend, and hearing the owner's desires with his budget is interesting to say the least. Makes me wonder how he'll handle unexpected maintenance that pops up.
Example, he wants to not wear headsets. In a piston airplane. I don't know many pistons that are that quiet.
I was thinking a Seneca might be decent. A II or III. Relatively low fuel burns, well supported, aft door, reasonable speed for the longer hops without being too brutal on the engines on the short hops.
Example, he wants to not wear headsets. In a piston airplane. I don't know many pistons that are that quiet.
I was thinking a Seneca might be decent. A II or III. Relatively low fuel burns, well supported, aft door, reasonable speed for the longer hops without being too brutal on the engines on the short hops.
05-09-2012, 09:03 AM
#4
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 16
Not wearing headsets in any small airplane is not picnic. Even pressurized King Airs are uncomfortale.
If he is a CEO, etc and carries personal insurance, you may need to see what he needs to be covered. Many companies require specifics (multi engine, turbine, 2 pilots). Obviously there is a reason insurance companies require this for personal AD&D coverage...so consider that.
The market is right for an small airplane. $200k will go a long way, especially if he can write a check to a bank. Lots of repossessed aircraft out there, and good equipment too.
If you buy a desireble aircraft, it will hold it's value much better than others. If it were my butt in the airplane...
Multi-Engine Favorite: 58 Baron - $200k or less - but I would make sure my "low-time" pilot was sharp and I might run him through a training event either at a sim facility or better off with an experienced pilot that would go along for a few runs.
...and a very, very, very distant second.
Single-Engine Favorite: Cherokee 6/300 - 6 seats, 300hp, single-engine. 15 of them on trade-a-plane for around $100k.
Not wear headsets? Look for a pressurized aircraft then. Cessna P210. Great aircraft, but I personally would not go that route. Most of us still wear active noise cancelling in jets...
If he is a CEO, etc and carries personal insurance, you may need to see what he needs to be covered. Many companies require specifics (multi engine, turbine, 2 pilots). Obviously there is a reason insurance companies require this for personal AD&D coverage...so consider that.
The market is right for an small airplane. $200k will go a long way, especially if he can write a check to a bank. Lots of repossessed aircraft out there, and good equipment too.
If you buy a desireble aircraft, it will hold it's value much better than others. If it were my butt in the airplane...
Multi-Engine Favorite: 58 Baron - $200k or less - but I would make sure my "low-time" pilot was sharp and I might run him through a training event either at a sim facility or better off with an experienced pilot that would go along for a few runs.
...and a very, very, very distant second.
Single-Engine Favorite: Cherokee 6/300 - 6 seats, 300hp, single-engine. 15 of them on trade-a-plane for around $100k.
Not wear headsets? Look for a pressurized aircraft then. Cessna P210. Great aircraft, but I personally would not go that route. Most of us still wear active noise cancelling in jets...
05-09-2012, 10:17 AM
#5
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Single pilot, four passengers, up to 800nm trips, and no headsets for absolutely no more than $250k. The CEO sounds like he has filet taste and a ground chuck budget...not entirely uncommon.
He needs to have his expectations adjusted back to reality...again, not entirely uncommon. Even if he can afford the plane at $200-250k, can he afford to operate it? After all, if he doesn't operationally budget for anything other than fuel expense he's going to have a rude awakening when it needs maintenance or when annual time rolls around.
Our company operates a Cirrus SR22 in addition to a jet...and while its often used as a short range <150nm shuttle it also sees 500-600nm trips pretty regularly. Good plane for one pilot and one passenger over that length trip, but one pilot and two pax can start squeezing range...especially if the folks are bigger than 180lb average or there is much in the way of baggage.
Ours is a 2007 G2 that is loaded with options...AC, oxygen, TKS, everything but the turbo. Our full-fuel payload is about 440lbs, but an airplane without TKS would send that number up quite a bit. From an efficiency/operating cost standpoint, its hard to beat 165kts @ 13gph (flown lean of peak) in a SE piston.
Within the aforementioned budget, a 2002-2005 SR22 should be considered (assuming 4 pax + pilot isn't a necessity), otherwise for six seat capability A36, B58, Seneca II/III or late-model Aztec, or Cessna 310R or 340. But everything has tradeoffs...payload, range, operating cost, etc etc.
Good luck!
He needs to have his expectations adjusted back to reality...again, not entirely uncommon. Even if he can afford the plane at $200-250k, can he afford to operate it? After all, if he doesn't operationally budget for anything other than fuel expense he's going to have a rude awakening when it needs maintenance or when annual time rolls around.
Our company operates a Cirrus SR22 in addition to a jet...and while its often used as a short range <150nm shuttle it also sees 500-600nm trips pretty regularly. Good plane for one pilot and one passenger over that length trip, but one pilot and two pax can start squeezing range...especially if the folks are bigger than 180lb average or there is much in the way of baggage.
Ours is a 2007 G2 that is loaded with options...AC, oxygen, TKS, everything but the turbo. Our full-fuel payload is about 440lbs, but an airplane without TKS would send that number up quite a bit. From an efficiency/operating cost standpoint, its hard to beat 165kts @ 13gph (flown lean of peak) in a SE piston.
Within the aforementioned budget, a 2002-2005 SR22 should be considered (assuming 4 pax + pilot isn't a necessity), otherwise for six seat capability A36, B58, Seneca II/III or late-model Aztec, or Cessna 310R or 340. But everything has tradeoffs...payload, range, operating cost, etc etc.
Good luck!
05-09-2012, 10:40 AM
#6
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Joined APC: May 2011
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 949
Thank you all.
Boiler, well put. I said champagne tastes on a beer budget, but you got it. I am particularly interested in the Cirruses (Cirri?) after reading your post. Economical, fast, great equipment, good engine. Do you fly the Cirrus as well? Your thoughts on it?
Boiler, well put. I said champagne tastes on a beer budget, but you got it. I am particularly interested in the Cirruses (Cirri?) after reading your post. Economical, fast, great equipment, good engine. Do you fly the Cirrus as well? Your thoughts on it?
05-09-2012, 10:54 AM
#7
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Yeah I fly our Cirrus...from the Louisville area to MYNN and back this past weekend, in fact. Not a typical trip, but "a hell of a lot better than Delta" according to my private pilot boss 
It is a GREAT airplane for a what it is - a single-engine piston. It is comfortable even with 4 adults in the cabin. Our Cirrus is personally owned by the company founder/owner/President/CEO/grand poobah. About 3 years ago we started using it for company staff after we got insurance sorted out, and use it about 200-250hr/yr on top of the 300+ our CJ2+ flies. It would fly more if it were approved for known ice.
Lots of our work is in small towns away from airline service, and 4-6 hour drives from our main office. We can fly the Cirrus 1-1.5hr and land 3 miles from the client, which makes our staff a LOT more productive, which keeps the bossman happy. Our plane also makes a lot of trips to Louisiana, and the air conditioning makes the plane bearable on the ground during summer but it ain't ice cold.
The airplane's safety record is spotty, but its due to the poor airmanship & decisionmaking of overconfident, low-time owner/pilots than issues with the airplane itself. Its not C182 forgiving, but it doesn't bite. Plus, "it has the chute" which, for better or worse, does placate some flyers nervous about "small prop planes".
I'd rather be flying a Meridian for more speed & pressurization, but the Cirrus is a great "short hop" airplane with the ability to go further.
It is a GREAT airplane for a what it is - a single-engine piston. It is comfortable even with 4 adults in the cabin. Our Cirrus is personally owned by the company founder/owner/President/CEO/grand poobah. About 3 years ago we started using it for company staff after we got insurance sorted out, and use it about 200-250hr/yr on top of the 300+ our CJ2+ flies. It would fly more if it were approved for known ice.
Lots of our work is in small towns away from airline service, and 4-6 hour drives from our main office. We can fly the Cirrus 1-1.5hr and land 3 miles from the client, which makes our staff a LOT more productive, which keeps the bossman happy. Our plane also makes a lot of trips to Louisiana, and the air conditioning makes the plane bearable on the ground during summer but it ain't ice cold.
The airplane's safety record is spotty, but its due to the poor airmanship & decisionmaking of overconfident, low-time owner/pilots than issues with the airplane itself. Its not C182 forgiving, but it doesn't bite. Plus, "it has the chute" which, for better or worse, does placate some flyers nervous about "small prop planes".
I'd rather be flying a Meridian for more speed & pressurization, but the Cirrus is a great "short hop" airplane with the ability to go further.
05-09-2012, 10:57 AM
#8
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Posts: 949
Does seem like it would be a good fit for this company, primarily the boss who is a bigger guy. Hard to beat a 2005 model airplane within the price range, that's a huge improvement over a 70-something with who knows what history.
05-10-2012, 05:10 AM
#9
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Joined APC: May 2009
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Okay, I'm gonna get blasted on this one but...Skymaster 337. Perfect for the low time pilot/owner/operator. I used to fly one for a machine shop when I was in college and the owner flew it himself about 30 hours a year. At least I didn't have to worry about it rolling over on him when he lost an engine!
Couple of quirks - the rear engine can overheat because of quirky cowl flaps, and the gear has a ton of actuators that need to be kept tweaked but overall I really like the airplane. At gross on a cool day you can eek about a 150 fpm climb on just the rear one. If you lose the rear one, find a spot to land.
I owned a flight school in MI in the late 90's and since I had gathered a bunch of time in these things the Detroit FSDO sent all those needing "training" in the 337 my way. So I got to see quite a few of them - good, bad, & ugly. I would buy one but my wife thinks they're ugly.
Couple of quirks - the rear engine can overheat because of quirky cowl flaps, and the gear has a ton of actuators that need to be kept tweaked but overall I really like the airplane. At gross on a cool day you can eek about a 150 fpm climb on just the rear one. If you lose the rear one, find a spot to land.
I owned a flight school in MI in the late 90's and since I had gathered a bunch of time in these things the Detroit FSDO sent all those needing "training" in the 337 my way. So I got to see quite a few of them - good, bad, & ugly. I would buy one but my wife thinks they're ugly.
05-10-2012, 11:20 AM
#10
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Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 395
Only thing quiet enough for no headsets is a turbine. Except the cost of the turbine alone is more than 250k LOL . So, I guess you could buy the new Breitling sponsored flying man suit....jk... But, in reality he has a lot of demands for what he's budgeting. Welcome to business and corporate, right? However, i'd say a non-pressurized Piper Navajo. It has A/C optional, and it has seating for 8 total plus a porta-potty option, or a 9th seat and no porta-potty... Insurance wise you'd probably have to have 2 pilots obviously with Commercial AMEL's. Throw the idea his way, see what he has to say. Otherwise, if you want a single...... i'll think on this one...
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