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Old 12-03-2018 | 05:32 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Squallrider
Except pic requirement is sole manipulator of flight controls according to the FAA I.e you can’t be in a bunk
Except you are incorrect.

Except, that you are incorrect. If you read the actual FAR...

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

(Approved by the
Office of Management and Budget
under control number 2120-0005)

If you are the A code in an AMC aircraft (and there is no J code) the FAA sees every minute you log as PIC.
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Old 12-03-2018 | 06:31 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by tunes
On the C5 we sent crews on the road with 1 A code. Often 1 Aircraft Commander and 2 First Pilots for 24 hour duty days.
You must have been west coast. East coast used the "J" code with some frequency, especially for exercises like JRTs and JRXs.
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Old 12-03-2018 | 06:33 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by FL370esq
You must have been west coast. East coast used the "J" code with some frequency, especially for exercises like JRTs and JRXs.
100% east coast. Never saw the J code and I got there the first time in 2010.
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Old 12-03-2018 | 06:44 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by tunes
100% east coast. Never saw the J code and I got there the first time in 2010.
Ahhh, a youngster. 😊 1991-2012 for me. It was done regularly, especially before the GWOT (or whatever we call it these days), when you had ACs/IPs/EPs flying together. Accepted way to share the wealth on a trip, especially in the ANG.
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Old 12-03-2018 | 06:46 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by FL370esq
Ahhh, a youngster. 😊 1991-2012 for me. It was done regularly, especially before the GWOT (or whatever we call it these days), when you had ACs/IPs/EPs flying together. Accepted way to share the wealth on a trip, especially in the ANG.
our ops tempo was so high it was almost always 3 man crews with 1 AC and 2 FPs.
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Old 12-03-2018 | 06:53 PM
  #26  
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21 years.....never seen a J code.
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Old 12-03-2018 | 07:45 PM
  #27  
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Fighter pilots don’t have this issue

#AMCProblems
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Old 12-03-2018 | 08:21 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by waldo135
Except you are incorrect.

Except, that you are incorrect. If you read the actual FAR...

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

(Approved by the
Office of Management and Budget
under control number 2120-0005)

If you are the A code in an AMC aircraft (and there is no J code) the FAA sees every minute you log as PIC.
This is a discussion about logging PIC time, so while your responsibility definition is accurate, it does not completely reflect the logging definition.

FAR 61.51 is the regulation that is relevant, FAR 61.51.e.1.iii covers the area you are concerned with in your citation.

Originally Posted by FAR 61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) Except when logging flight time under §61.159(c), when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Takeoff and departure;
(4) In-flight maneuvers;
(5) Instrument procedures;
(6) Landings and approaches to landings;
(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;
(8) Emergency procedures; and
(9) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
(5) A commercial pilot or airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation in accordance with §135.99(c) of this chapter if the flight is conducted in accordance with an approved second-in-command professional development program that meets the requirements of §135.99(c) of this chapter.
I did try to do tabs for ease of reading, but front side indentations aren't supported.
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Old 12-03-2018 | 08:28 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by waldo135
Except you are incorrect.

Except, that you are incorrect. If you read the actual FAR...

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

(Approved by the
Office of Management and Budget
under control number 2120-0005)

If you are the A code in an AMC aircraft (and there is no J code) the FAA sees every minute you log as PIC.
a) How is the PIC exerting his responsibility and authority as to the final operation of the airplane from a place other than a pilots seat?

b) During an in flight emergency requiring immediate action, how is the PIC executing that action and then actually the person deviating from any of these rules if he isn't in the seat?

c) How is the PIC that somehow deviates from these said rules going to word the writeup of that deviation as he is not in the seat when the deviation occurs?

Does the A-Code in your scenario need to be in the seat during takeoff and landing? If yes then why? What about other critical phases of flight, like airdrop, AAR, low-level, formation? Is it ok for him to be logging other time then also?

Seems shady to me. I'm personally not interested in trying to explain the logic of logging other time as PIC time to Capt X during an airline interview. Glad it worked out for you, I wouldn't offer that as sage advice to anyone else.
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Old 12-04-2018 | 05:05 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by LJ Driver
a) How is the PIC exerting his responsibility and authority as to the final operation of the airplane from a place other than a pilots seat?

b) During an in flight emergency requiring immediate action, how is the PIC executing that action and then actually the person deviating from any of these rules if he isn't in the seat?

c) How is the PIC that somehow deviates from these said rules going to word the writeup of that deviation as he is not in the seat when the deviation occurs?

Does the A-Code in your scenario need to be in the seat during takeoff and landing? If yes then why? What about other critical phases of flight, like airdrop, AAR, low-level, formation? Is it ok for him to be logging other time then also?

Seems shady to me. I'm personally not interested in trying to explain the logic of logging other time as PIC time to Capt X during an airline interview. Glad it worked out for you, I wouldn't offer that as sage advice to anyone else.
Spoke to a guy on my Jumpseat recently that had to fill out an ASAP for something that happened while he was on the Jumpseat for an aircraft he wa not rated in. Just because it doesn’t make sense doesn’t impact how the FAA sees it. Does Delta subtract out bunk time from your PIC time for 3man crew CAs? We they give you a complete pass if something happens when you aren’t in the seat?
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