Being punished for calling in fatigued.
 

So a good friend of mine, who I’ve known for a very long time, told me the following: He ran into one of our ALPA guys, who said that if you call in fatigued “one too many times” the company may send you to see a company doctor for a medical evaluation. They are looking to make examples of people apparently.

And no, this isn’t for the 5% who may abuse the policy.

So where’s the FAA on this? Oh, wait a minute!!:rolleyes:

I know they try to keep fatigue calls to a minimum and it works..Most guys I have encountered are scared to death to call in fatigued. I wonder how the new ACARS acknowledgement for FDP extension is going? I looked at several rotations this weekend and almost everyone showed a reroute. It seems like every line pilot is a reserve now, and reroutes are out of control(even during good weather).

Scared to death? Why would you be scared. Fatigued is fatigued. I’d be scared to death of a pilot who was scared to death to call fatigued.

I’ve made the call 4 times in The last 5 years. Generally after major reroutes or delays deep into the night. Never heard a peep from anyone.

Just remember you can’t extend after you have been rerouted.

I could see how that could work, especially if their doc is a big fan of sleep apnea...

Just like if you are unable to commute ‘one too many times’ or sign in late ‘one too many times’ or flunk a checkride ‘one too many times’ or bust a FOQA parameter ‘one too many times’ or any one of the myriad responsibilities we are trusted with you’ll be questioned on it.

Personally, I’ve never worried about being asked about my performance at work. If you are fatigued, don’t fly. If you are often fatigued at work, it may be a sign of a diagnosable medical condition. Not sure I’d call the evaluation ‘being punished’.

I think the verbiage is you can’t be rerouted into an extension. Once rerouted and everything goes to c**p, different story. But I could be mistaken.

Correct, any reroute must be legal without an extension at the time it is assigned. After that all the normal FDP limits and extensions apply.

Many times this is why you cannot be put back on your original delayed flight that you were rerouted out of. Once you have your reroute schedule any further change must be legal without the extension, even if it was on your schedule earlier in the day.

The sad thing is they would only have to send a couple of people to the doctor to achieve their goals......after most will be afraid to call in fatigued. Even is this isn’t true, the rumor will be enough to stop some pilots from calling fatigue.

A rumor is all it is. Strange that it would be started by one of the ALPA guys.

Just remember everyone, calling in fatigued, and choosing to not accept an extension because you would not be fit to operate it are two distinctly different things. If you call in fatigued, it ties their hands, and they have to put you into rest right away. If you say you cannot accept an extension, then they can reroute you into a shorter segment that does not require an extension.

Everyone is different, but for me, the longer the flight that will operate into the two hour extension, the harder it is to be sure I would be fit to fly by the end of that flight. I don't think the company is going after people who choose not to extend. I also doubt they are going after people who call in fatigued unless it is just exceedingly obvious abuse. In that case, wouldn't you want the company to go after them? I know there are exceptions and sometimes an innocent person gets caught up or falsely targeted, but most of the times when I hear all of the facts from both sides I see why the company chooses to investigate certain actions.

The key with sick leave, fatigue, and extensions, is if you are actually not ready to go, you shouldn't fly. One of the reasons we get paid the big bucks is to make these sometimes tough decisions.

Be safe out there.

This is false. I had an incident last week where I got a reroute that showed me getting in 9 minutes before having to extend. When I looked closer at rotation, I realized they had the flight attendants were scheduled for a 20 minute turn. Obviously our reroute went into the extension. I called crew tracking and the 24 hour ALPA line. I was told by both that it was a legal reroute and I wasn't rerouted into an extension but delayed into an extension.

I actually believe the post about looking for people to make examples of. I called in fatigue one time years ago and ended up getting calls from 2 duty pilots and a chief pilot. The chief pilot was threatening my pay even though there was no legit threat as I was content getting paid for what I actually did (my call was at end of rotation when I was rerouted to fly instead of deadhead). Fatiguing out is absolutely more hassle than continuing.

Which you chose to extend into. My point was the reroute can’t be scheduled into the extension. In your case the 20 min turn was not realistic and could be argued was an illegal assignment because of the known delay. You should have stated you will not extend because there is no realistic estimate of the length of your duty, therefore no way to ensure you will be adequately fit for the undefined duty.

How exactly would they make an example of you?

Since the last Contract there is a process now for fatigue calls and pay. Dalpa periodically puts out the statistics and an Overwhelming majority of pilots are getting paid.

You known your fatigued when you are frustrated dealing with calculating extensions of every crew member to see if you can legally operate the flight.

Was told the story of a recent fatigue call...

LCA was rerouted with his F/O into a long and challenging day and subsequently called in fatigued; F/O also called in. Review board was willing to pay the captain, but initially declined to pay-protect the F/O on the identical rotation. They reportedly said “he bid to fly with LCAs, that’s on him.” LCA followed up, justifiably livid and was reported to have succeeded in overturning the board’s decision.

How anyone on this board found bidding strategy relevant to fatigue pay protection determination (clearly iaw the PWA and normal PBS functionality) is beyond me. If I ever trusted the system before, I sure don’t any longer.

Ok someone clarify something for me. I thought the fatigue board consisted on two alpa guys and two company guys and the tie goes to the pilot so, unless you do something really stupid like calling in fatigued leg 1 day 1, the decision should always fail safe to paying the pilot.

The board does not even function as your post suggests and how you were awarded the trip would not even be considered. The board simply looks at the specifics of the fatigue call. The board refusing to award pay is in single digits.

So is the inference that LCAs are supernatural and don’t require sleep or are impervious to fatigue? If you can’t hang with Superman don’t bid to fly with him. :rolleyes:

Not following here. Do LCA’s have different duty days than everyone else?

Nothing to follow...it’s non-sensical, right?

That’s what I recall from the sales pitch but I haven’t had to use it yet. Not extending is completely different.

I know it’s thought to be a low percentage for post-sign-in trips and higher for pre-sign-in fatigue calls. Single digits sounds really low, but I did (before hearing this story) trust that the system was pro-safety (as I think pay-protecting pilots is).

How would you be fatigued before you even sign in for the trip?

It should be, but the company muddies the water by telling us to follow the fatigue/not fit for duty reporting protocol when refusing an extension.

He was probably referring to the fatigue call being heavily influenced by events that happened before sign in. Example: your 4 year old has a bad dream, comes down to your bed at 1am screaming. Then once you settle him down he proceeds to give you a kick in the throat or ribs approximately once an hour until you wake up at 5am to get ready for your trip. Purely hypothetical of course..

Would you expect to be paid for a trip in that situation?

Is this a serious question?

Commute gone awry, hotel issues for a commuter that can happen before sign-in just like they happen after, any number of disruptions to getting rested before starting the trip. You are evaluating your rest before sign-in, are you not? If you don’t think you can safely complete (or perhaps even start) your FDP, you’re obligated to say so.

Well again would you expect the company to pay you for the trip? Sounds like it should be a PD.

Every situation is different, so I won’t speculate on pay expectations. I do think pay protection is understandably less frequent before sign-in. PD doesn’t work at 0400 before an 0600 sign-in.

Sailing, any chance you’re fatigued right now? I understand you want to speak for management, but you’re grasping for counterpoints that are out of character.

If you kid woke you up all through the night and then you decide at 0500 you aren’t rested, I don’t believe PD is even an option for day of trips.

Just a public service announcement and no comment on fatigue calls....

Absent obvious reasons for sleep interruptions, if anybody otherwise finds themselves dealing with out of ordinary fatigue, cognative, anger, or other issues strongly consider gettg a sleep study.

People with sleep disorders dont know they have them.

Sure it is. I have had a family member very ill and spent the night at the hospital. Called the CP office and said I would be to fatigued to fly. Trip dropped with no issues. I did not expect or ask to get paid.

That's a true story, however one detail is missing. The FO had the PBS bid "Award trip if with a LCA" and the CA/LCA were flying back-to-back trips together. Trip 1 ended with a redeye to domicile arriving at something like 0600. Trip 2 started with report at something like 2000 the same day with long flight getting to the west coast at something like 0300 body clock time.

They both called in fatigued after Trip 1 and before Trip 2.

The review board didn't want to pay the FO because "he bid that way with his PBS bid"

From 17-01- Making the Fatigue Call from Oct 2017

Q: I am too fatigued to come to work because of a sleep interruption (for example, family issues) at home last night. I don’t feel it would be safe to report for my rotation with such insufficient rest. Should I call in fatigued?
A: If you are fatigued, then you should call in fatigued. The Company and ALPA are in complete agreement: no one wants you to fly if you are too tired to do so. In situations where the fatigue is due to personal issues versus operationally-induced issues, the FRB can’t award pay guarantee. The past (and continuing) practice has been for the Chief Pilot Office (CPO) to deal with these pre-report situations. Frequently, a personal drop is the more appropriate course of action. If the FFDR indicates that the issue isn’t covered by the FRB, it will be referred to the appropriate department (usually the CPO).

There you go...more detail than I had - sounds like the same situation. Bidding behavior weaving its way into the fatigue review process seems to invalidate its purpose, IMHO.

A PD is done via PCS for rotations or reserve on call days beginning no earlier than the next day and is processed by position in seniority order and has to have sufficient reserve availability.

While calling the CPO and having them get involved day of results in the same thing of you not working they trip, that’s technically not a PD as defined in the PWA.

No, I wouldn't expect them to pay me for personal stuff. I was laying out a reason why someone might call in fatigued before sign in.

Sounds like if the previous hypothetical happens, call the CPO or duty pilot and let them know you are fatigued. No pay for the trip, but also no consequences, because life happens. Once you get some rest you can always white slip another trip as long as there is one.

I agree, what about reserve pilots who bid large stretches of on call days in a row? You could very well get worked every day and even with a 30 hour break somewhere doing that for 8+ days in a row can be very tiring. Are they going to "punish" someone for bidding to work like that then calling in fatigued? I sure hope not.

Besides the crying baby or loudly snoring crash-pad bunkmate, perhaps a reserve pilot is assigned an IROP rotation that delivers an airplane and lands at oh-dark thirty, gets a 5 or 6 hour layover then deadheads back to domicile and is assigned a trip that signs in 12 hours later that night when doing the post-rotation schedule check. I think that would be fatiguing.