Resistance is futile
 

I see we have a 3.B.4. review triggered. Now that we (not me) voted to neuter that clause by adding profit sharing into the equation they seem happy to address this review and state that pilots will get nothing (as if this peer review along with a could have been increase) and is of no consequence. Had we retained the earlier language, where would we be? Ponder that, just for a minute.

I can’t remember the exact catalyst, I think it was the 777 or 737-800, we had the power to hold the company hostage and achieved rates on one of the two airframes that were much higher than the industry for that aircraft....that was the day 3.B.(6 I thought) was put on the chopping block by management for the 2001 contract. It was a while ago, so my recollection is fuzzy, but managements said never again. I think it was the 777 because they cancelled half of the existing orders and blamed us.

I wasn’t around for that one but do recall the “parking” from my time at a previous carrier. This was valuable because it was a mechanism that continued to provide wage parity beyond the amendable date. That was a huge loss IMHO. C'est la vie, I just wish we would learn from our past.

When was the language changed and what did it say before?

I'm seeing the 12 year 757 rates at AA $293, UAL $293 Delta $296. Would the old language produce any pay increases?

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

Still in negotiations for contract 2015. Go Team No!

Instead we’ve had a 4-year contract give us a raise every year with full retro and profit sharing. Now we get another bite as we enter section 6 again.

ah the classic "we'll get em next time"

...without all the gives and a commensurate pay rate with full profit sharing. Who cares if we are in section 6 if the pay rate continues to track our peers? And with a much better profit sharing plan.

Water... bridge... but this is a lesson that needs to be told because we removed the only mechanism that would have back stopped our pay rates beyond the amendable date. This was a short sighted settlement for retro when the other employees would have stagnated as well to keep us from getting a raise. You don’t even know the value of what you had. The TVM crowd should have fought this tooth and nail. :rolleyes:

I pondered it for more than a minute and the only answer I can come up with is "Who knows?" You are going into an alternate history type of thing. Maybe the company would have just rolled over and agreed to it - or we could still be going toe to toe working under C2012. What did your pondering suggest?

Yep - it would have been awesome to have kept that language but it also would have been awesome to have kept the pre-2012 PS formula.

You are making it almost seem as if it was totally optional and we can just "choose" what we get. It is not optional. We are in negotiations with the company which by the way has a lot of legal and governmental tools on their side. We were also disadvantaged by being up earlier in the cycle than AMR and UAL for seemingly ever.

With all of that said I see no reason why we shouldn't take a much firmer stance this cycle and if it drags on for a few years it may very well be worth it. Then again it could drag on for years and we might end up in the same place.

As a wise man named Yogi once said "Predictions are hard - especially about the future."

Scoop :D

My pondering has let me imagine that the 5 raises since 2015 would have triggered 5 reviews and increased our pay RATES to industry average while maintaining our profit sharing and former language with regard to sick leave, trip coverage and every other concession that would not be, as we patiently waited for an acceptable PWA. You are correct that this is alternate history but there is nothing speculative about the rest of the company being limited to no wage increases unless there was a pilot increase while still conducting section 6 negotiations. Since then, the non-cons have had annual or better raises of 3-4% and returned to the pilot profit sharing plan. We nearly solidified a provision that negated the punitive nature of prolonged negotiation which is management’s primary leverage.

I’m dreaming, I know and I have to live with our collective choice and reality but it should never be forgotten what we gave up. I continue to think this was a huge one. I’m sure others have their own regrets.

It struck me as strange that this is acknowledged publicly by the company when previously it was not a concern, but now is used to tout our above average compensation. Negotiations are on going and this propaganda would never make Deltanet if we were still getting raises without having settled. Maybe I’m the only one who thought a mechanism to not stagnate wages and continue raises was a TVM dream come true.

Eh, the non-cons get a pay raise...good for them. I don't get all the angst every time they get a few pennies thrown at them. I'd prefer we just negotiate into the contract that we get X% pay raise annually, after the expiration of the contract.

That would be great but we had that with the non-con tie in. It wasn’t perfect or ideal but now we start from 0. I don’t see management agreeing to anything like that again but I want to be wrong.

Yes but the "industry average" was set by our contract. UAL matched us with their "Me Too" clause and AMR got a gratis raise from management that raised them toward our pay to keep the natives from getting too restless.

So like I said - alternate history. IF we don't accept TA-2 who knows what the industry average would be because our TA-2 Set the industry standard.

This whole line of thinking - That our contract is only industry standard is correct, but guess what we set the standard. WE didn't rise up to meet AMR and UAL - they rose up and met us. We could have gotten 15% more and if they match us guess what? Industry standard!

Like I said - this is all speculation, what could have happened, maybe even what should have happened, but I would prefer to look forward.

Scoop

If you don’t get the angst you need to read a bit more carefully. Many of the Posters here have angst over everything. I wonder how some make it out of bed in the morning.

The average new hire is probably in his or her mid-thirties. With 30 years to go until retirement, they're right to be concerned about just about everything and they need to pay attention. I'm glad when they do, and it's informative to hear concerns about issues on here that haven't touched my life and career yet, but might down the road. 8 to 10 contracts worth of fat-trimming/cost savings/efficiency gains are likely to completely change the landscape here and across society... what are the odds our quality of life will trend better over that time period? Is there a model in another career that we should look to for inspiration in this shareholder-focused economy? Everywhere I look, I see quality-of-life sacrifices that the little people make while the upper crust of our society gets exponentially richer and gains more control of almost every system. One can only hope their position might at least be grasping on to the crust as it separates. What used to be had by a hard-working high school graduate (good schools, safe neighborhoods, affordable health care, time with family) now nearly requires a dual-income family and many more total hours at work per week. What one used to be able to afford on a single job now often demands second and third jobs in the gig economy.

We've definitely got it good - don't get me wrong. But the trend line isn't in our favor. Thank goodness for our union and the inherent protections of organized labor - IMHO, that will at least slow inevitable qol degradation. DALPA is far from perfect but I'll take it in an instant over trying to fend for myself.

Sailing, I don't know you but I suspect your life is pretty sweet. You're in the sunset years, with grandkids and who knows what else keeping your glass half full or better. While many of our more senior pilots are struggling to catch up after the lost decade, there are just as many sitting pretty with a healthy (if smaller than originally planned) nest egg, little to no actual debt, aging parents who actually have pensions and health care supplements and possibly an estate of significance to pass along, spouses with pensions of their own, social security that will likely continue unabated through death, etc. I know that's not everyone's situation, but it's not uncommon. It's also very different from where many of our younger folks sit, and they're right to try and preserve everything they currently have and seek to improve it where they can.

Many of our newbies are sitting on mountains of debt themselves or in conjunction with their spouse. In comparison with two decades ago,
their spouse is more likely to be working and less likely to be staying home to manage the household while daddy goes to fly his trips. The jobs those spouses have are less likely to have pensions or affordable health insurance. The college expenses they'll face are significantly larger than in the days of old, and jobs available to their kids who may not be interested in college are fewer and pay less with poorer benefits. Their aging parents are less likely to be financially independent, and more likely to require financial or other assistance. They're also much less likely to be sitting on any wealth or property of significance that might ultimately be passed down.

Don't begrudge those with angst. Ignore them if you must, but legitimate complaints about the current state of affairs and particularly the trend lines going forward abound. You may not be pulling up the ladder, but it's definitely rusting out. Many of us are simply trying to reinforce it before that ladder collapses in dust. I'd love to think that whenever I reach your seniority and your age my qol life will be as good as yours is now. I suspect it won't. My inflation-adjusted paycheck may be similar (if I'm lucky), but that's of much less concern to me than just about everything else. I fully expect a productivity floor of sorts and difficulty dropping trips. The value of my and my family's travel benefits will likely have degraded significantly. I anticipate having less sick leave and more difficulty using it. My schedule will probably be more taxing on my body and I might have fewer avenues to improve it. If I choose or am forced onto reserve, I suspect I'll spend more time at work and less in actual reserve at home.

What am I getting wrong here? For what reasons should our new hires or anyone entering this industry not have similar concerns?

3b6 came out of POS 96.

First used for the 737-800 in ‘98. This is one reason why the 737 pays as close as it does to the 757.

3b6 again used for the 777 and 767-400 with negotiations starting in 99. United was below 200 bucks an hour at that time for the 777 when we settled. There was also a profit sharing conversion into that rate (and all pay rates) of 6% which is the max it could ever pay . I never heard anyone complain about that as the PS language was not as robust. (Leo would stroke writing checks with the current language)

C2K it switched to 3b4. In that billion dollar deal, 3b6 was a no go item for the company. Although I am sure no one wanted to give it up, considering the deal and the huge gains, most felt it had served it purpose as a hedge coming out of a concessionary contract.

Up until TA2, it had been triggered multiple times and had only paid pennies I think 1 time. Considering the track record of 3b4 and another billion dollar deal, should the MEC have walked away from negotiations and the NMB over this? Did we have them over a barrel?

You can’t look at this stuff in a vacuum. When we had it, it seemed management was structuring raises to avoid it. Would this pay raise look different as well? It is much like the retirement issue and pay. People want to take the current contract pay and apply a DB that went away 13 years ago. Who knows what our pay/contract (as well as any of the other passenger carrier contracts) would look like if we still had a DB? Maybe the same, but I doubt it.

Anyway, I know I know, any of the things that were traded in negotiations might have easily stayed if we just had a “real union,” but you also can’t discredit the opinion that negotiations might take much longer than many want to admit. (Which still doesn’t guarantee the perfect contract)

Examples? The JV negotiations, reroute, DH. We are already a couple of years into those with no resolution in sight. I only use that as an example of time and “as long as it takes” may be quite a while.

^^^^^^this

Great post. I’m very happy here and with 32 years left here and will strive to make it the best place to work.

I second your observation about the state of the American work force. The funneling of wealth to the upper echelons of society is only accelerating, and I think we’re going to see a drastically different world when I retire.

Its not just to the upper echelons. Its being funneled by them to the lower echelons as well for preservation of power to the detriment of middle and upper middle class labor, and to a scale so massive that you are ensconced well within the 1%, radically outnumbered, and expected to pay.

Wellfare programs aren't nearly as lucrative as they were before 1995. Considering the current deficits, does it really matter where your taxes go? You can find joy by imagining it's funding your favorite program. Most people just fixate on whichever one they despise the most. Everyone seems to think they are temporarily embarresed billionaires because of taxes.

The country has been strip mined by the owner class for the last 40 years. Part of the reason they get away with it is they’ve gotten middle/upper middle class people to blame and be fearful of poor people.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kxuBhemD3nk

Spot on

I think the older generations will be surprised by the younger people's revolt against that system and I hope we'll see a strong reversal of that trend towards a reinvigorated middle class and buoyed lower class.

Sounds like Bernie Sanders talking points. Let me ask. Does "reinvigorated" and "buoyed" also mean casting off the ridiculous notion that new high school graduates should shun true skilled professions like machinist, mechanic, electrician, welder, plumber, etc, and should instead invest years of their life (and six figures of debt) to pursue a worthless degree in sociology and communications?

I don't think the "rich people are evil" crowd is preaching that...though they should.

Why is this political? You aren’t what you are worth, it’s what you negotiate. As a Union, it’s a collective whole and for DL, they have to deal with all the pilots. It’s not a left vs right thing, it’s called capitalism. I’ve yet to fly with a Democrat at DL, and I DO NOT talk politics until the other pilot brings it up.

Regardless, it’s supply and demand economics. DL pilots are the supply force, and currently the air travel demand is high.

Don’t confuse that into a left socialist or communist agenda. It’s not political, it works on a market economy. That, In itself, is how America has been the most prosperous country in recent times. Historically, forgetting a free economy, has a 100% fail rate everywhere else. So if you want to forget history, you simple doom yourself to a similar outcome.

We are outliers in the “union” trade as we are highly compensated employees, yet unionized. Unions tend to be democrats by vote, but tend to also be middle class earners with huge numbers on low profit margins. Other industries lost the “highly compensated” aspect due to, guess what- the market. The market for skill set. Pilots don’t just pop up in a few months, it’s a pipeline of time that cannot be “shortened” in present day.

That means when times are good, we are doing well, this is one of those times. If/when the tides turn, the pendulum swings. That’s airline life.

Here ends the civics and fundamental economics lesson..

Back to the previously scheduled programming.

My post that SF was originally replying to was more about the angst that I see every time the non-cons get a pay raise. Every time they get a pay raise there is overblown angst on SM and even in the cockpit. I once had a Captain beside himself about them getting a raise (for doing nothing!!!) and how it's a "slap in the face!" I'm thinking to myself, we're in negotiations and we're still months from the amendable date! It's ridiculous and embarrassing to see attitudes like that.

I'm one of the middle-30 somethings you're mentioning. Trust me, there are things I don't like and want to see changed. However, you won't see me angry over the non-cons getting amounts to barely more than a yearly cost of living adjustment.

Any kid smart enough to finish highschool probably won't be satisfied performing blue collar tasks. Last century's middle class job is this century's subsistence labor. Fortunately, the dropout rates are around 30% so there should be plenty of mechanics and such. Six figure debt is a small price to pay for the chance at a decent career.

It depends on a lot of course, but I know a few non college graduates who own their own blue collar business, making great money and deriving a lot of satisfaction from the craftsmanship and leadership of the workers they hire.

See any interview with Mike Rowe. The disdain for blue collar work is part of the scam, this myth that only a college degree will enable career success (always accompanied by a lot of debt to cover costs that increase by three times the inflation rate every year...but hey how else will you be able to build a rock climbing wall and pay a hefty sum to the newly minted "Vice Chancellor for Diversity.")

Hey I am a college grad, as nearly all of us on this forum are. I love college and a lot of what it offers. In many fields it truly is the necessary first step to a broader career. However I feel that many universities have lost their way (NOT teaching undergrads is sometimes an advertised perk when colleges get into bidding wars for elite faculty...huh?). And college, especially immediately after high school graduation, is not for everyone.

I don't know why the younger generations are taking the blame for the things their parents did? My parents had shop class, drivers Ed, woodworking in high school. They determined, not me, that it was a waste of resources and wanted their kids to only have college prep courses. I didn't ask for the school to get rid of it. I didn't teach myself to put all my eggs in the college basket, that was the boomers. Literally, when I was in middle School, you could major in basket weaving and make $70k a year.

The boomers have gutted the public education system and blame the youth of today for daring to follow in their footsteps at they encouraged.

I don't know what school you went to but my son is a senior in high school and they have all of these classes. He has taken automotive repair two of his four years of high school and knows more about cars than I ever hope to.

Agree completely, far to many pilots discount all the other employees that make the airline work.

I really don't care very much about what DAL pays other employees except for how it may affect us.

Giving the other employees a small raise will negatively affect us very marginally concerning PS - probably a rounding error, someone else can do the math.

On the positive side we want all DAL employees to lead the industry. This helps pave the way for us to lead the industry. Its a lot easier to make a case that we should be industry leading if every other employee group is leading the pack.

Finally we also benefit in that it makes DAL more competitive for these employee groups and that probably helps attract more qualified applicants.

All in all this is probably pretty good for DAL Pilots.

Scoop :)

True dat.........

Schools in my area have come around on this finally over the last few years. Seemed like since the days of "No child left behind" and subsequently "Race to the top" every school had to be focused on every kid being "college ready", even to the point it would chase kids out of school. There are/were probably schools that were just "mailing it in" but getting more vocational education into the high schools has been a welcomed development in our district.

The high school I went to still teaches wood/metal shop, FAA and has programs to spend your sophomore-senior year learning trade (off site). The school system in the city I currently live in has a program for high school kids to graduate with an A&P. They have lots of other programs such as automotive repair, carpentry, business, entrepreneurship, etc... The programs are there, it's just whether kids are willing to capitalize on such opportunities. I'm sure some of it is being unsure of what they want to do in life, but I'm betting a lot of it is the stigma of "who" goes to such programs.

I'm probably in the same boat as you. From a very early age, I was taught that college was the only option. Not AN option, but the only option. Every school I went to, public and private, taught us that college was the path to success and anything less was failure. My high school was particularly bad; even the military was not a viable option after high school; they got in trouble for banning recruiters.

It's no wonder that tuition is out of control and professors are making well into the 200K territory; it's simple supply and demand. 40-50 years ago, college was still a reach for a lot of families. Loans were difficult to get. Today, with student loans backed by Uncle Sam, anyone can qualify and debt becomes so common. Universities know this and take full advantage. It's disgusting. All under the guise of having a piece of paper that says you're more educated than others who don't have that piece of paper.

My wife has a friend in her early 40's who is going for her doctorate in "something." She's a career student. 5 degrees. Has never made more than 30,000 a year. What a joke our education system is.

Hold on. Why are we blaming colleges for merely offering a service. Colleges haven't been cutting state budgets which help offset the cost of tuition. Colleges aren't sitting in boardrooms demanding their most competitive hires have bachelor or masters degree. Colleges aren't sitting at kitchen tables telling kids they need to attend. There are certainly problems at University in this country (like making millions off the backs of "student-athletes" for virtually nothing), but most problems are the result of bad policy and capitalism.

I get the gravity of the debt, which cannot and never will be repayed. But the interest will remain and its already massive and will become the single biggest thing we pay for in perpetuity.

Be that as it may, "welfare" as you put it, is nothing now compared to what over half the country is pushing for. Unlimited open borders with unlimited free healthcare, "education", housing and eveything else for unlimited amounts of poor people who want to walk over and take it. Then whoever walks over to take it will be amnetized and given a "pathway to citizenship" (voting) that will lock in that system for 1000 years via single party rule. That's literally the campaign promise of an entire major political party with a good chance of winning right now.

6 figure airline pilots (most near or above the quarter million mark in total compensation) will be considered a mandatory target market for funding that fantasy.

Want to see racism? Go to East Dearborn.

I've been. Walked into an Afghan restaurant and was treated like a king by both the husband and wife that ran it.