Delta vs Jetblue
 

Tough decision...I've been with Jetblue for 6 years now a captain on the Bus. Had my app in mainly for United since I live in a UAL hub...Delta called and got the CJO. It's a tough choice considering the money I'll lose with starting all over at DAL at 40 years old with a 60% pay cut and a family of 4 to feed. Any advice or new perspective would be helpful.

Merry Christmas!

I'd stay. Delta has hired a ton in the past few years so your progression wouldn't be good enough to give up your current 200k+ position. I don't think you'd make up the pay loss in the long run.

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Congrats on the offer, without more info on where you want your career to go hard to give specific advice. I got hired here at 37 and in a few short years already have 2,500+ junior to me. Also happen to live in a UAL base and wanted UAL pretty bad. They never called so DAL it was, honestly quite happy the way it has turned out.

The variety of flying, culture (trust me very few are truly Hotel Van Commanders), contract, profit sharing, retirement, well ran company all are good things. Like anything else it isn’t perfect but overall it’s a great place to be.

I realize losing 6 years of seniority/pay at JB would be a daunting prospect but the retirements are just starting to really kick in so if you were to make the jump the time is now. If you want aircraft/flying variety, international flying, etc. I think this could be a good move. Also as a new hire on most fleets you can make decent $$ if you want. On our smallest plane I was easily six figures my second year and close the first one. Hope that sheds some light, good luck and Happy Festivus!

1. Why'd you have an app in?
2. The answer to #1 is the truth you seek

We have plenty of former Jet Blue guys over here, I would talk to them.

No matter what you decide it’s a crap shoot. Many airlines that were once “The place to be” are long gone and many of the top choices today were once second tier airlines.

Scoop

After the merger it won’t matter..... huh? What???

Had my app in mainly because I'm sick and tired of wasting so much time commuting...I'd figured if UAL called it would be a sacrifice but worth it to eliminate the commute... now with DELTA I'd still have to commute to NYC.

Thanks for the input.

I think you’d be insane to give up 6 years of seniority and a 250k+/yr job.

Couple of questions...

1. Do you see yourself in B6 for 25 more years?
2. Do you think B6 will be able to keep growing and maybe get bigger airplanes?
3. Do you think B6 will merge/acquire by other airline?

Retirements are just starting. Even if you never get to be a 350CA, you’ll be a very senior NB CA. We are hiring 1340 next year and I assume close to 1000 per yr for some time.

Run the numbers, talk to your spouse and kids, then decide. Good luck...

Thanks for the input,

1. B6 in my opinion has an upshot longterm but it's just a guess.
2. Not sure about bigger airplanes but we are starting London and other cities in Europe next year. Probably no widebodies unless there is a change in the board of director level.
3. I think a merger is the only way we will survive long term, but who knows.

How easy is it for a commuter to make extra money the first couple years at Delta?
Does a junior NB guy have to work really hard to get green slips etc?

Where are you commuting from? I’m gonna guess DEN?

IAD and DCA

Green slips are very easy to come by right now on most fleets. I wouldn't worry about being able to make money even as a commuter. That is once you're off reserve.

I did the DC to NYC commute for a year. Super easy, especially from DCA. The flights are on regionals, so you can’t reserve jumpseats, but the jumpseat is often open and they are shuttles so there are often open seats (I rarely had an issue, only on big weather days). And if you’re in the 220 or 717, you’ll be senior very quickly and your schedule becomes very controllable, including the ability to green slip. And depending on where exactly you live, driving to work is a backup option (mainly for EWR trips), which takes a lot of stress off commuting.

In the OP’s situation, the only reason I’d leave is if you think the future at B6 is bad.

I got on at Delta at 38 and it’s a great gig but I’ll be retiring at around 2500. That is a bottom feeder wide body guy or a moderately senior narrow body guy.

Joining at 40 today, I bet you won’t crack 3k. That will not get you into the top 10% of most narrowbody A slots.

I’d wager at B6 you’ll have many years in that top 10%.

In a few short years you say? The latest hiring cycle for y’all started 2014. So anyone in 2014-2016 is gonna do way better than someone starting now.

The problem with Delta is ya hired 4,000+ plus since 2014, and the avg age of a new hire is 37. So the math says more than 2,000 pilots today at Delta are below 37. A JetBlue guy starting at 40 is not going to crack to top 3,000. Highly unlikely to hold A350 CA.

Someone else posted a retirement chart that said Delta has 14,400 pilots right now and to be #7,000 based on retirements, that would be year 2031. Half way up the list takes 12 years. That’s a lot to consider. Not sure how 6 yrs at JetBlue looks but a guess is around 50-65% overall? Where would that JetBlue guy be in 12 years? Top 25%?


Being 40 with a wife and 2 kids giving up $260k to go down to $90/hr on probation would have to be a big risk consideration.

If you are 40 years old, you will be retiring somewhere in 2044. (Not sure when your birthday is.) If it is Jan 1st, you'll be at least #3120. If your birthday is Dec 31st, you'll be at least #2746. That's assuming no one younger than you retires early. This is a really rough guess, but even with just 1% pilot growth per year, our list will be 18,000-19,000 pilots in 2044. (Personally, I think it will be much higher). Since there will be early retirements, let's assume you finish around #2400, out of 19,000. That's 12% system seniority. Our plug 350 Captain is currently 20% system seniority. So yes, I believe you could be a widebody captain in your last few years if you came to Delta now.

Also, just to put it in perspective, there are a lot of retired military guys coming over at 42-45 years old. I was one of them. With 25 years to go, you are still young. The biggest question is can you handle a couple years earning less than you're making now?

Everyone is different but my first five years at Delta:

1) $86,000 (717 FO)....also note, this was under the last contract. Pay has gone up quite a bit since then.
2) $170,000 (717 FO)
3) $214,000 (717 FO / 7ER FO)
4) $202,000 (7ER FO)
5) $265,000 (7ER FO)

That is flight pay, per diem, and profit sharing. Does not include 401k.

Hopefully having some numbers will help you make the right decision.

Thanks a bunch for the info, it really helps put things into perspective for me financially. I'm sure there are many folks in the same shoes as myself and hope this helps with their decision too.

Merry Christmas!!!

You've got a good point which is what makes this decision much harder to make. I'm close to being the plug in JFK and schedule is not that great. I would give that up if it meant I would work less days for the same pay within a couple years. But not sure how QOL would be for a 2-3 year new hire on lets say that 320 fleet.

I don’t think anyone has brought this up, but commuting to a widebody schedule is a totally different proposition and one you may never see at B6. Commute from DCA to ATL is pretty easy btw. YMMV

Yes, I would be willing to take the paycut for the right circumstance.

I made the switch from Jetblue to Delta in 2017 and have no regrets. Granted, I was only at B6 for three years vs your six, but I still think it’s worth doing. Delta is leading the industry and is only getting better. Revenue, profits, growth, and the need to hire 8,000 pilots over the next 10 years will allow you to have a great career. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

If you’re a slacker, like me, I only worked 1 GS this year on the summer (a 3 day trip). Pulling 185k gross including per diem and profit sharing. That’s in NY320, in year 3.

Also take in consideration our 321 pays more than the 319/320, as we get more of them, a lot of the trips are mostly 321 flying.

To add another data point for your consideration. I've been here three years. I usually just fly my line as awarded and average around 75 hours a month. I've flown a total of five days of green slip in the last three years.

Years 1-3 look like this for me:
1) $79,000 (717)
2) $134,000 (717)
3) $173,000 (717/320 last two months)

Jetblue career potential... A321 Captain... maybe widebody captain, but they’ve been saying they’re getting WB’s for 15 years.

Delta career potential... Ultra Widebody Captain.

Delta has better pay, benefits, work rules, retirement, union, contract, profit sharing. The profit sharing alone will make the difference between small widebody FO and an A320 CA at B6.

Delta is not going away. Will Jetblue be around in 5, 10 or 15 years? Will Jetblue become Frontier? Will Jetblue be able to weather the next downturn?

Jetblue is a AAA ball team. You can make good money and work a career there. You will work harder and get less for your effort than you will at Delta. You will have better career opportunities at Delta. You can chase Captain and make that fairly quickly (especially going into the future w/ the retirements) or get senior on a middle or large WB and travel the world in comfort and class.

I was one of the B6 guys who was furloughed Delta-North and came back after being a Captain at Jetblue for many years. I liked Jetblue. It was a good company. I don’t know if things have gotten better or worse since I left but I was top 20% CA at B6 and came back to narrow body FO. I almost made as much my first year back. When I went to the 76ER I made more. Now on the A350, especially w/ profit sharing I make more, working far, far less.

I have friends at B6 who are happy. I have friends there that are unhappy. I don’t know anyone at Delta who wishes they were at B6... no one.

Delta is by far superior in everything. That’s no surprise. I’m not trying to bash B6... but do you want to stay on a AAA professional ball club for a career or play for the NY Yankees?

For me it’s a no brainer. Ive seen both sides. I know guys who got hired here a few years ago that are line holding NB Captains. Upward movement will not subside at Delta for a long time.

To get the really good routes at B6 you’ll have to be very senior... not at Delta. There’s something for everyone.

Delta is the only choice. Or United or AA.

Thanks Man, it really helps to hear everyone’s opinion and take on it and I’m glad I put this out on the forum it’s made the decision much easier to make.

Cheers,

Merry Christmas 🎄🎄🎄

Delta vs Jetblue
 

Depends how old you are. Big factor in the equation. Under 40, Delta no comparison. Between 40 and 50, tough call. After 50, easy decision, stay at JB, very hard to recover if already a Captain at JB.

Delta has become the airline of the young folks. Close to half of the seniority list has been hired in the last 5-6 years. According to Widget Seniority, had I gone to Delta this year being in mid 40’s, the absolute best I could of hoped for was around 6,500 seniority close to retirement. That buys you dog crap on the Captain side, and that only the last year.

You would be foolish to jump ship, agree. Age is a BIG factor. Your QOL will only improve at JB, and the lost income, lost vacation time, etc, will be fully lost, never recovered.

I was also at JB for 3 years. Made the jump to DL in 2018. Haven't regretted a thing, and haven't looked back.

You are most likely under 40. Good for you

If by "close to half" you mean 35% of our list, then you'd be correct.

35% of the list has been hired since the hiring spree of 2014? Jan ‘14 guys now 9xxx? If so, that means half of those guys were below the avg age of 37. That’s a LOT of young people to be behind.

And all those guys saying you’d still retire #3,000. Keep in mind, it’s not a quick approach of retirements at the end there. Once he’s above 55, it’ll be an absolute crawl of retirements of those above him. He’ll retire 3,000 but it will literally take that last year before retirement to be ~ 3,300 and then 3000 as he is forced to punch out.
Its not a clean linear climb where he can then enjoy being top 20% for the last 10 years.

That's not how averages work. You are equating "average" and "median."

If 10 pilots were 38 and one pilot 27 the average age would be 37 even though most of the pilots were older than 37.

Yes.

#9327 hired 1/13/14

14433 on the list.

(That's 35%)

Average: 37 years old
Median: 36 years old
Youngest: 23 years old
Oldest: 59 years old

https://ibb.co/2gGbzzV

I think it's also important to put this into perspective. What is your monthly line value?

Keep in mind that NYC based guys get a lot more for their seniority because so many folks dont want anything to do with JFK/LGA/EWR. For example the bottom FO on the A330 in MSP has close to 10 years and in New York its around 5 years.

If you want to work your butt off you can. I know an FO on 717 in DTW who made 350k this year and last year.

if you will retire at 6500 at age 65 that makes you about 51 years old retiring in 2033
hired today you will retire around
#8000 in 2030 (54 years old)
#5800 in 2035 (49 years old)
#4400 in 2040 (44 years old)
#2750 in 2045 (39 years old)
according to widgetsenority

Here's my average monthly credit and average monthly block hours flown for these years, and yes, green slips were flown in several months:

1) $86,000 (717 FO)...................102 credit/55 block
2) $170,000 (717 FO)..................98 credit/51 block
3) $214,000 (717 FO / 7ER FO).....95 credit/49 block
4) $202,000 (7ER FO)..................85 credit/52 block
5) $265,000 (7ER FO)..................98 credit/44 block

You're working pretty smart. Nice job!