pm sent Denny

FWIW I'm almost positive AAs deal was by BES and age.

-First was by BES, they had to want to reduce manning in your category
-Second was age, all the age 64 folks in your category got a crack at it before any age 63 folks ect...
-Last was by senority only among people your age and in your BES.

AA guys please feel free to correct if I'm wrong

It started out as equipment and seat at age 64 then 63....62. However they ended up granting the early retirement to everyone who applied.

Negative, that was before Dougie.

Correct, my cousin is A330A there and he just texted me this:

By two part bid status (seat/equip), first age 64 in seniority, then 63 in seniority, then 62. Total vacancies determined by company on each fleet.

Well, from the company standpoint it certainly makes sense, and they would be paying for it. Most things re pilots are seniority based so, I can certainly see a kerfuffle if it’s BES. Just wondering if it would have to have ALPA concurrence or if the company can do an end run. Just laying some prep ground work for anybody that was not here in 96. As I remember that was seniority based to 600 pilots where-by they could add 5years to age and/or years of service to bring them up to a full DB. Got something tickling my noggin that it wasn’t an ALPA contract thing(could be wrong about that) but there is some there there.

And to add to my above post, you didn't have to be 62, just in you're 62nd year.

61-62, 62-63, 63-64, 64-65

For perspective, only 10 in their 65th year took the early out, compared to 186 in their 62nd year

Why do you think that is? Do you think it’s that they thought no matter how big the turd is they will be full pay till the last and that is how to maximize income? Or is it a numbers thing, lots more guys 62 with lots of 64 guys already gone? Or could it be the A fund B fund thing and interest rates?

Excellent question Buck

I'm guessing plenty of 64 year olds, especially those on a WB, think they will get res. gaurentee to not have to fly again. lots more uncertainty for someone with 1-3 years left vs. 6 months

222 -64 yr olds

Yea, that’s prolly the best one. Kinda goes hand in hand with my first one....max revenue. I didn’t know what they were offering. Is it 50 hours pay till 65, benefits till 65 and passes till 65? Think that’s what I saw on their forum.

Yes plus the benefits included their 401K company contribution too

Tell me how it's a windfall? 5 full year B scale. What was that? 9/11, that was fun time in our lives. BK, what a party. I was ready to go at 60. That pension thingy got in the way. That had me doing the bossa nova in South Beach.

Yea.....Boomers just don’t understand:) “I had it hard, man”

After the displacements, he might be throwing gear for Captain "Windfall". I do split walkarounds. I walked up hill both ways to school.

Yea, but I did it in the snow! Bwahahah!



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE

Ok, I can usually noodle out abbreviations but BES has stymied me. A little help for the abbreviation impaired? Thanks.

Denny

sorry. Base equipment seat

It’s the easy button like “prolly” :)

Lol! Thanks.

Denny

AA just announced 640 more early retirements. Offering over 2,000 paid leaves (like SILS) at 55 hrs.

Hank,

Age 65 was indeed a windfall for everyone approaching 60 in the left seat - 5 more years at the top of the food chain when all ahead of you had to retire at 60. Try telling the guys who lived through the B scale and 9-11 and retired at age 60 that age 65 was not a windfall. Just like the B scale was a screw job for all who lived through it.

Call it like it is and don't try to spin it. You can't on one hand claim that age 65 was not a windfall and on the other hand claim the B scale was not a screw job. They both affected Pilots one positively and the other negatively.

I am not saying guys in your demographic did not get screwed but claiming age 65 was not a windfall is too much of a stretch. I think the guys who got screwed the worst were the early 90 furlough guys followed closely by the 9-11 furlough group, but what can we do about it? All demographics have been screwed to varying degrees by the vicissitudes of this career, we are even now seeing the 2 and 3 year Captain group who were going to have the "Dream career" talk about furloughs. Its all part of, dare I say it, wait for it........................................"Living the Dream!" :eek:

Scoop

Sorry, I was hired with a DB available at age 60. I was also 777A at about age 50. I don't consider working an extra 5 years a windfall. Now everyone gets that windfall! So it's not a windfall, it's SOP.

Violins are breaking out faster than the corona virus. :)

Working an extra five years is not the windfall. Following close behind a large chunk of pilots who COULD NOT do so... but doing so yourself - that's the windfall. Would you have supported a 63 year old being reinstated for 2 years when the rule changed? Or a 60 year old coming back for 5?

if there was a windfall to the rule change it was narrow and airline specific.

A 59ish yr old pilot who received a weighted payout from an airline bankruptcy due to age based on age 60 retirement arguably had a windfall in then realizing the additional 5 years.

Otherwise its 6 of 1 half dozen of the other for everybody else.

No one is saying you did not get screwed - you did. We all did. But you are missing the point. I was also hired with a DB at 60 and got to yank gear for 5 extra years - who cares? What about the guy who also had a DB when he was hired but had to retire because he turned 60 just prior to the rule changing.

Pilot A had a birthday in December and was forced to retire at 60. Pilot B in the same exact new hire class with a birthday the next month gets five more years on top. This is literally the definition of a windfall.

You are confusing getting screwed with a windfall. They are not mutually exclusive. Pretty much every Pilot hired in the last 40 years got screwed by circumstances at one time or another. Most of these Pilots did not get 5 more years at the top of the food chain.

You also say: Now everyone gets that windfall! So it's not a windfall, it's SOP. Negative. If every guy ahead of you can go to 65 its SOP as you just said. If its SOP it cannot by definition be a windfall - your arguments are not consistent.

Scoop

Huh..that there sounds like a windfall to me.....😁

**** man, I have been here 30 years and have never even stepped foot on a 777

But Is it possible you stepped foot into the left seat of a 747 at a very early age?

Nope. Not there either. But I did make it to the left seat of an MD 88 at 25 years

Well... At least you got close!! :p

I've never been screwed, just seen the less glamorous side of the industry. Never missed a paycheck, so I'm blessed. Definition of a windfall:

a piece of unexpected good fortune, typically one that involves receiving a large amount of money.
"windfall profits"

Working 60-65 is not in my opinion a windfall, it's not unexpected good fortune. Good fortune would be hired here and making captain to 3 years and bagging greenslips, with a 401k in your own name.

The money compared to contract 2000, not large. I'm working for what I loss in BK. Only reason I"m here. I was fortunate to be hired at the beginning of a wave. Flying past 60 is not unexpected good fortune. Might be semantics, but I wouldn't describe this as a windfall. Bust my balls. How I see it.

My perspective looking back on 30 years is this… I somewhat got paid for what I did, I was always able to eat and pay the bills but not much more than being able to live in the moment Got scammed by the company a few times, got ****ed by the economy and world events a few times. I guess if you were expecting much more than that you should find another profession is my advice Now if the company comes up with a nice early out proposition I will quietly slide into the sunset and forget the whole thing

Am i the only one who in spite of it all has enjoyed a career.that never seemed at all like work?

I think you are it Bob, congratulations

For an airline that was not shy ever to tell us or the whole world how we are the best at everything, number 1 in every market number 1 on wallstreet, bragging about profit sharing... the list goes on. I feel like we are handling this the worst out of any airline. I feel like everyone else has at least has some sort of a plan and we have absolutely no idea what we are doing.

Your assessment is absolutely correct
our management is absolutely clueless

The plan is stop the FA union. OK that's not so much an actual plan as it is a pre-programmed "prime directive" that must be followed no matter what (aka irregardless) kind of like those stories of some soldier on a remote island still fighting the war that ended 30 years ago because no one told him things changed.

Hank,

No ball busting, just pointing out a different point of view. I agree that flying past 60 is not unexpected good fortune, but suddenly being able to fly past 60 if you choose or need to is.

You said you were a 777A at 50 years old - The only reason you got to that point is all the other 777 As had to retire at 60. If you were forced to retire at 60 those behind you would also have moved up that much faster.

I also agree that we are arguing semantics and this whole discussion is not the best use of our time.

Scoop