Strike pay is minuscule and short term.

Labor Union furlough pay is substantial and long term.

Just an outsider looking in but maybe just set up a voluntary fund and distribute it equally to all the furloughed each month.

OK, but structurally the same, so you have a moral problem with it?

The reason I ask is that for our long term health of our unions and work rules this may be the best solution. It allows some relief to furloughees so that the union can stand firm for work rules in this type of situation. It is a small assessment that is, in many ways, cheaper to the pilots who stay than the concessions we so often accept. Those concessions that historically stick around much longer than we anticipate. I am not for concessions in almost all cases because I know the history. It seems this solution, which to the OP's credit, is outstanding outside the box thinking should have some real discussion and debate.

To be honest, I’m not sure how I feel about it. I bet if I asked the last 50 pilots I’ve flown with if I could stay in their guest room for a month because I was having hard financial times, probably 40 of them would hand me a key. But on the other hand, if I asked them to take $500 out of their wallet and hand it to me, probably all 50 would look at me weird. I think we have a very magnanimous bunch here, but there’s also a culture and history that I’m not sure lends to a pilot funded furlough fund of that magnitude. I think a voluntary fund would receive an impressive amount of contributions, though.

I agree with you until the argument was put to them that this is cheaper.

Some easy math because I am not smart. A five percent assessment for the duration of the furlough. Say 200 per hour for round numbers with 72 hour guarantee. 14,400 at 5% is 720.00. An eight hour guarantee cut for furlough mitigation is 1600 so we're saving 880 and no mitigation that ends up being the gift that keeps on giving. According to the math earlier in the thread the furloughed pilots would get around 40K per year. Most of us pilots are good looking enough with enough skills and personality to score at least 30-35K at a job during the furlough. So by my math we have furloughed pilots able to pay bills and survive during the furlough.

Senior pilots saving money over the concessions we almost always seem to accept. And a contract left intact so the furloughees coming back don't have to spend a decade getting money and QOL back. Also keep in mind that the airline understands its expensive to furlough and if the pilot group is firm and standing up for itself and the furlough candidates aren't scared for their lives the furloughs will be only what's needed to survive and not a union busting tool for managements.

I agree. The company is going to find a way to reduce staff no matter what we do.

Thousands of positions have been eliminated. That does not change that they have also reduced the hours of employees via reduced work days, job sharing, reduced line values for flight attendants ect..

Almost everyone posts about a contract left intact. The ask has been a ALV reduction. It corrects itself and can be time limited. Someone yesterday posted the max flight hours the last few contracts have allowed. The company always wants the highest ALV available.

In normal times yes they want the highest ALV. Why only now for a lower ALV? It’s not so much to save jobs as it is to protect losing potential future revenue (by having pilots on property) if things bounce back quickly. It’s a business calculation.

Now I’m confused. I thought you said the company wanted to lower the ALV....:confused:

Maybe you aren't acquainted with the history of our profession with regard to all the "temporary" concessions that have lasted for far longer than the original plan. The OP in this thread posed a solution that goes beyond this specific crisis and gets us to a place where management can't hold the threat of furloughs over our heads to force concessions that they can then stretch out over a long period of time. I posted the simple math, an eight hour cut in hours costs more than twice this simple plan and the plan allows the union to hold the line and make sure our contracts don't get decimated.

The whole point of a union is to bargain collectively to make steady consistent gains in pay and quality of life. If we are going to have pain when the industry faces headwinds like we face now, better we share that pain between ourselves instead of allowing management to pit us against each other in order to set us back a decade of hard won gains. The eighty plus year history is very clear. Every time we face a crisis like this the company asks for help to survive. The pilots cave and "help". The company files bankruptcy anyway. Furloughs still happen. And the judge bases pay and QOL going forward off the contract after concessions. This plan allows the furloughs to take place but we support our own and the contract stays just like it was so we can gain ground over the next ten years instead of trying to get back to where we were.

Its a smart business decision. They would save more money by furloughing. A ALV reduction gives the airline the ability to respond rapidly in a very unstable market. In the end that benefits both the company and pilots.

Not true. As you know, they wanted and negotiated a wider window (including lower min) for WB when times were good. Clearly that's an efficiency benefit to them and does not benefit the pilot group.

what are they willing to give up for that is the ultimate question.

Why not sell the refinery and raise some additional cash? They had to make what, a couple bil off that money making strategy?

I don’t disagree, but in your previous post you attempted to bolster your argument by saying that “every” department EXCEPT flight ops spread work out to avoid layoffs. That would be a compelling and important distinction. Unfortunately, it’s not true. Other departments have faced unmitigated job losses similar to those our 1941 pilots are facing. We are not alone in taking job losses.

What?? And force management to pay retail for skin moisturizer??

Thanks to all of your feedback I've altered the idea slightly.


The proposal is as follows:


A monthly assessment not to exceed 3.5% of pilot pay for every non furloughed Delta pilot. This would fund the Furlough Emergency and Disaster Relief (FEDR). The assessment would be required to maintain the FEDR to a level equal to: (furloughed pilots who have not bypassed recall) x $3,300.


That $3,300/mo equates to $39,600 annually. That the furloughed pilots would have to apply to receive, and it appears the aide would come in the form of a tax free no interest loan.


If the company files any form of bankruptcy, this terminates. When all pilots are recalled, it terminates. This would need MEMRAT now, and in 1 year to continue.


I think this proposal solves most of the issues discussed. It would require all pilots to participate. The recipients would need to ask for the assistance. Lastly the aide would be in the form of a loan.


To sum up my thoughts: I'm not sure what the best way forward is for our pilot group. I do think this is a viable option worth consideration along with our other options of an LOA to prevent furloughs, and not requiring all pilots to provide anymore furlough assistance.

If you have a strong opinion on any of this or another option, now is the time to contact your reps.
Thank you again to you all for providing so much constructive feedback.

It has no value.

How much value does that $15,000,000,000.00 in stock buybacks have? Maybe they could sell those at a huge profit!!!

Are you impugning the strategic and managerial genius of our company leadership?!?! Blasphemy!!!

Side note, if the refinery has lost money and has no value, why do we keep it at all? And why keep hemorrhaging cash on this venture that has no value, but cut a much cheaper asset (pilots at the bottom of the pay scale) which will actually serve a useful purpose when travel demand increases, possibly at a rate that exceeds training throughput to reconfigure the network in a timely manner?

I like your idea on many levels. It takes matters into our own hands and preserves a contract that was gutted for so long. The probability of the company not taking the opportunity to stick it to us is low. For those furloughed, it would at least make it easier to have confidence you could pay your mortgage.

I’m hoping Cares 2 comes through and saves jobs in this government induced disaster but if not I hope DALPA is taking a serious look at what we can do to help our own. Thanks for the thought you’ve put in on this.

-What would be the collateral for the loan? How would we handle defaults(Pilots leaving Delta)

-Would it then be acceptable to pick up open time, prolonging the time recalls are made?

-Is this in addition to the 1% already approved for health insurance?

-Are all 1,941 interested in weathering the furlough through loans that need to be repaid?

It may have some value to us. It has no value on the market. No one is going to touch a refinery with the pollution issues they all seem to have. Why do you think we were able to buy it so cheap in the first place? Since then refineries values have dropped even more with the rise of electric vehicles. It has also never shown a consistent profit. Would you buy a money losing business? Here is a article that even mentions our refinery. I suspect that within 10 years Delta shuts it down and takes a multi billion dollar write off for environmental cleanup.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-refinery-runcuts/oil-refiners-face-reckoning-as-demand-plummets-idUSKBN21K0C8

Keep in mind the question is not about concessions. The company has a contractual ability to achieve its required cost savings. The decision we as pilots are making is will we share that cost concession equally or force it all on the 1941. If the furlough happens and money is offered take it without guilt. You will still be providing the majority of the cost savings.

The Trainor doesn’t need to show a profit. The primary customer is Delta Air Lines. If the Trainor subsidiary is profiting off Delta, then Delta is losing money to Trainor. The benefit is lowering the crack spread. It has benefited the entire industry, but us slightly more in terms of lowering the crack spread.

Some answers to your questions about the loan process are probably can be found here:
https://deltafurlough.alpa.org/

Picking up time while pilots are on furlough will probably still be controversial. That seems like a very nuanced debate with no answer that seems to satisfy everyone.

This would be in addition to the COBRA.

Most likely some of the 1941 would not want a loan and some would want the loan. This is the main purpose for the up to language in the 3.5%. If less of the 1941 receive the money the lower the required assessment.

I'm curious why these would necessarily have to be loans and need collateral. If a senior pilot is looking at loosing say eight hours in a concession this assessment would be much less than the hours lost. If the choice is $2000 less dollars (eight hours at 250 per hr.) or 4% (250 per hr. X 72 hr. guarantee= 18,000 X.04= 720$) I think most pilots would take the 720 loss and understand its actually a 1280 gain over concessions and the contract stays intact.

The question is whether or not we vote in a contract concession. The airline will be staffed as Delta chooses.