When Section 6 starts up again...
 

Just curious. Have any views changed on here concerning any retirement restoration for the guys in the retirement window (i.e. deadzoners) and/or revisiting a different kind of retirement plan other than a 401k?

Fire away!

I'm still feeling the same about wide body and narrow body scope. Thats still my primary issue.

And that is?

Not sure how many DZrs are left after the early out. No one was ever really able to actually define who was a DZr to begin with, as many felt they were but were they really?

As far as the other retirement plan that already got voted in on LOA20-04 (MBCP).

Scope and QOL to the moon! Fellow apes. Lol

Seems the VEOP eliminated a lot of that demographic

Alright... I'll throw out my favorite... longevity pay. What say you? Worth fighting for?
And the VEOP didn't get rid of all of us.

Lol. Back to the DZ carve out.....

More out of curiosity than anything. I just wondered if the near furlough and backsliding has instilled any humility in the junior ranks. I have my answer.

With more longevity you have better seniority which allows you to bid bigger aircraft, that pay better, and potentially better QOL, more vacation time, better schedule, and higher pay... over those with less longevity. So you're already ahead in those aspects.

Or are you talking about restoration of a pension that was terminated years ago with 60% AFE? I guess it just depends on cost and how many pilots would benefit from it vs using that cost to increase the contract in other areas.

Yeah, well at least you're consistent, out here trolling for $. You know times are looking up when you DZ carveout guys crawl out of the woodwork.

Maybe an increased DC after 20 years at DL, would pretty much move all pre 9/11 hires up now and would give post 9/11 hires a benefit well into the future (far enough away it probably won’t be as big a deal for management)

i have asked other posters what their PBGC looked like and I was told by those with roughly 15-18 years of service when BK hit they will get ~80k/ year, does that check out?

This this this. Looks like APA are already starting to bend on scope. Not a single change for us, and don’t allow the 35 compass RJs back under any circumstance besides delta pilots sitting up front.

Actually, no that is not the case. Delta doesn't even pay my tax bill, but thanks for playing. I just wondered if any lessons were learned during all this..

One of the lessons I learned is NOBODY knows what someone else's career is going to look like. Many times the argument rolled out for the DZ plus up was, "you're career is going to be so much better than mine".

The fact is there is always a black swan event out there. What's the next one? When will it be? 5, 10 years from now? Longer?

To me the important issues are Scope, QOL and pay.

I guess if you can convince the Fed to support your bid for a pension then I say we go for it. That's what I learned from all this.

I am not advocating one way or the other. My question was more to gauge the level of empathy now that more of you have looked into the abyss. And I might add, the union of those that were in no danger did vote to ensure you pay like at no other time in history when furloughs seemed imminent. But now that we are back to normal.....

​​​​​​
Curiosity :rolleyes: Almost as believable as your vaccine fear mongering.


​​You have got to be the most insincere poster on here.

So I see you remain arrogant and selfish as before. Pretty shameful.

I guess I just don't see the connection between loosing ones job and one losing a pension 15 years ago. If you want to talk about the diffence between the layoffs after 9/11 and now sure there can be much to be discussed. But the huge difference is the FED bankrolling the airlines this time around vs not last time. That made the most difference, and and the consolidation of the airline industry in thr post 9/11 world.

Bring it on, I was for longevity pay well before the rona showed up. At the very least banded the 330/764 up to the 350. Everyone loves to complain how few planes we have at the top rate, compared to our competitors, yet scoffs at the notion that we'd actually be fairly close if we banded like they do. Pay based on years of service and let the pilots choose to fly their planes based on the type of flying they like. Yes, I know less pilots chasing the dollar reduces pilots in training, thus pilots required.

That said, scope and work rules are still higher on the list. I'm still some for of a min balance type plan where you get X dollars per year of service.

honest question: what lesson are you hoping people learned from this that would apply to a DZ retirement carve out?

Primary issue? It means thats my first concern.

Longevity pay ain’t longevity pay if positions pay separately. 12 years at DAL is 12 years. Delta hires captains, amirite?

Scope protection is the tide that lifts most boats. With appropriate pay, this career offers plenty for retirement, even if it isn’t all specifically tagged “retirement.” Everyone has different needs - save or spend as much as you’d like. My limited polling leads me to believe the true dead-zoners are either gone or so limited in numbers as to be a small “special interest” group that needn’t drive all of this pilot group’s priorities. Obviously, vote for the representatives and TAs you find most appealing. Before covid, plenty of pilots were leaving early to sail off into the proverbial sunset - that tells me the retirement pain has had abundant time to heal. I know it isn’t what was “promised”, and we’ve all now seen what “promises” to new hires are worth in this industry. Painful lessons all around, for sure.

Scope, QOL, pay, in that order.

Unless someone can give me hard data on DZers, such as who they are, how far down below retirement glide path they are, and how many they are, then I tend to assume that there aren’t any left and the plus up is just a money grab by senior pilots about to retire.

I would welcome having my mind changed, and shown what the actual need is, but I haven’t seen any real data at all. Until then, I’m not interested in the most senior of us blowing smoke up my *** about how my career will be so much better than theirs and that there will never be a hard time for me. Because we literally are in a hard time, and the ONLY reason I’m not furloughed is because of the federal government.

Agreed. Pay is worthless if you're wife leaves with the kids and it takes you three days to notice. Narrow body schedules are a joke. I had better QOL at the regionals (yes, for a lot less pay).​​​​​​​

Deadzoner (singular) retirement is not an issue. The VEOP was your (and my) chance at earlier than 65 retirement with company paid income.

simply put - you had your chance for a different retirement. You didn't take it. You can't have your bread and your roses too. Sorry JB.

We haven't heard much about the MCBP lately other than, "We're working on it."

I'm curious how this pans out.

Exactly! Still waiting for the next Black Swan event since 9/11. Maybe the 3rd or 4th spike in COVID this fall?? (which would be 20 years since 9/11).

Compassion and understanding that might temper that selfish greed.

No that doesn't quite work, and you know that. There would have to be a difference in left seat/right seat simply due to authority and responsibility. However... I would also run the scale out 42 years rather than the 12 we have now and graduate the pay increases higher in the first 15 years. That puts more money in the FOs pockets sooner (TVM is not a myth no matter how some like to say it is)

So it's selfish greed if someone else wants it, but not if YOU want it. Got it, thanks.

While this might be true, do you think it right to marginalize the remaining DZers? Their sacrifices made this place a hell of a lot better than it otherwise would be.

I am under no illusions that there will be any sacrifice on the part of the group for anything for the DZers. That message was made loud and clear pre WuFlu. I just wondered if attitudes changed with the crisis.

that sounds awfully subjective, and very much like you are in fact advocating for one position over another

Yeah, that’s what it seems like.

While we’re on the subject, is there anyone in the union that I can reach out to who might be able to explain what metrics define a ‘deadzoner’ and how many of these people we have and how much we need to help them? Surely the union is tracking/aware of this group and their specific needs, right?

Except that I wasn't old enough for it to work.

Awesome.


Thanks for the data points. Ya'll have a great weekend

lol. Now that's funny!

For a guy whose delta captain income doesn’t even cover your tax bill, this seems like a bit more than asking others to have compassion for your plight

I wasn't asking for me.

and it's not about the money.


Thanks.


Why are you so angry about everything?