30 321NEO orders converted - good news
 

What you were probably expecting

but really....

Sexy 321 Trash Panda Pics

So i should get on the bus and get on The Bus is what you're saying. I gotta learn my colors and i barely learned what an IAN approach is.

The article is kind of vague as to what fleet it’s replacing. Any ideas?

Meh. I think this is way over emphasized. I don't think there is any chance DL will become an all Airbus airline. We will always have Boeings and possibly other manufacturers (even the "Airbus" 220 is an Airbus in name only).

Basing major career decisions on the theoretical ability to do a short course many years down the road, thus saving a couple weeks, is pretty silly.

Yup! I based my decision upon the lameness of yokes, and the quaint 50's-ish overheard panel of the 737-900.

There’s a not insignificant number of 320/757s that are hovering around the 30 year mark. By mid-decade they’ll be on the Logan’s Run track.

Me thinks the timimg is suspect! look at the shiny new planes while sticking it to the pilot group with regards to scope

That's actually sound reasoning.

The oldest airplanes in the fleet are A320's @ an average of 26.5 years old. Logan's Run, what a reference.


https://img.aviationpros.com/files/b...278&w=500&q=60

They can take the first 50 320's whenever they like.

NEO payrate must be at least equal to 752.

serious question, does delta and ALPA have to agree, or can DL just take it to arbitration? This is not meant as a sarcastic comment, I am genuinely curious if there is a way for DL to force a rate for the plane on us, or if ALPA must agree to it.

Isn’t the NEO the same size as the regular A321? I would think it would pay at the same rate as the normal A321.

The a321 carries the same number of pax as 757-200. So it makes sense to have the same payrate to me. Although i am aware it carries less cargo. NEO will have a max t/o of 208K, while NEO XLR if we ever get that is arround 228k max t/o wt. 75 payrates for all!

Greater MTOW, greater range, few more pax. 321 replacing 752 is a reduction in pilot costs, likewise 223 with 319/737-700.

Closest equivalence is 330-300 and -900. By and large the same jet, but updated with new engines and better capabilities, hence 339 paying slightly more.

the contract specifically says the A321NEO is a new aircraft type for pay purposes, hopefully we can get 757 pay rather than 737-900 pay for it (and eventually move all 321s to 757 pay)

Negotiation is required but arbitration can be requested after 90 days. The arbitration board issues the binding rate. So technically, DL cannot force a rate but they can not agree and then have arbitration decide. I’m certain arbitration would be completely unbiased. There’s no chance that they would give us a one cent raise over the CEO and also find that there is no need to negotiate with the union in the future. Again.

Did we get rid of a provision that a jet can't turn a wheel until a pay rate is agreed upon?

3.E.6. Pilots will undergo training and fly new models yada yada yada without regard to how long it takes to complete the process.

Paraphrased, but yeah.

Yep. 3.B.6. I think, around 15 years ago. A.K.A. "The Hammer" which is one of the reasons LM thew money at the pilots; to help that mighty provision go away.

IIRC while C2K was the "UAL+" contract, its often forgotten that the UAL part of that equation was a beneficiary of the "Delta Dot" which was basically the 737"NG" pay negotiated when "The Hammer" was still in DALPA's hands. UAL patterned off of that to get their pay tables which became the "United Plus!" rallying cry for C2K.

There was also a 777 kerfuffle around that same era where DALPA called LM's bluff ($500/hr in 20 years ago dollars was the rhetoric, but who knows what was actually in the negotiating room) and he threatened to park the fleet but did end up cancelling orders because of it. Once the dust settled DL only had a micro fleet of around 8 of them.

Regardless, it was a very powerful provision that is now gone.

Which is why IMHO we won't see "757 pay"...because 757 pay already is 767-300 pay. That is only because it is a common category. I doubt any arbitrator will put the 321NEO in the 767-300ER pay range.

That's why the 737-900 (AKA the "other ER"...don't be h8'n) which came after "The Hammer" was given up only pays a dollar more than the -800.

Obviously that 321 is going to require mad clock-watching skills.

Especially the small motored ones that have left me stranded in SLC twice while non reving on hot days!

Airbus, a foreign company, bad. Boeing, an American company, good. It's that simple.

Unfortunately, in the narrow-body scene, the foreign company is offering a much better family of airplanes -- for passengers and crews alike.

Excellent news to see another 30 NEOs added.

Every incremental order that goes NEO instead of MAX is a step in the right direction, and hopefully if an eventual MAX order did happen, it will at least then be this much smaller.

155 A321NEOs on the delivery schedule.

are you being serious??
you know Boeing has farmed out a lot of its production. I know a staggering number of the parts for the 787 are created overseas, and just assembled in America.

Airbus has a factory in America now as well.

220-300 and the 321 both are built at KBFM in Mobile, Alabama.

Saw someone mention this, but wasn’t sure if they were serious or joking. Does the increased passenger weights negatively affect the NEO to the point where it won’t be able to make it to Hawaii?

you guys are worried about $10 an hour when the profession is still almost 20% behind inflation since 1980. Little league playing against the Yankees.

this …100%%

eh I wouldn't think so, etops 180 is what you need for PHNL and the islands. Now how many pax/cargo/ gas we can carry and still make climb performance out of the main land places we want to fly from is unknown.


normal A319s can make it no problem but I think they are capped to 90 seats or something like that out of LAX

I don’t know 1980 pay scales but in 1986 a Delta new hire made 21,600 a year flat rate. In the second year he made 28 a hour. In year 5 he made 56 give or take in the right seat. A L1011 CA made 160,000 a year. A 727 Captain about 130,000. Greenslips were virtually unheard of and there was no real soft money like reroute pay. Quality of life was however unquestionably much better if you lived in base. Commuting was virtually impossible in any category as a reserve.

Serious question: what do you propose people do with comparative data to a 40 year-old reference? I’ve noticed one or two other things that aren’t quite the same now as they were in 1980…that doesn’t mean a wiser game plan will or could snap them back to legacy.

$28 in 1986 is 66.79 today
$160,000 in 1986 is $381,672.98 today.

Also a smaller industry 40 years ago as the effects of deregulation hadn’t fully propagated. Meaning less total pilot jobs available.

There were also a lot less people on the earth. What is your point? A smaller industry should have no bearing on the pay of pilots doing similar jobs. But inflation shows we are underpaid.

Actually to be 1000% honest I’m pretty sure we’re overpaid when you look at what most people in this country make for how much work they do or even compared to most other pilots in the world. But whatever

How much work they/we do is irrelevant.

“1000%” agree. I am constantly amazed and embarrassed by how little some pilots regard themselves and their fellow Delta Pilots. Their path to get to Delta and stay a qualified pilot must have been very different than mine.

Looking around at all my friends and noticing that I’m the highest paid with the most time off isn’t devaluing myself. I hustled my butt off to get here but that doesn’t mean I ignore reality.

Just because you make more than your friends, does not mean you're overpaid. Maybe it's just that they're underskilled or underpaid. Or they're paid what they negotiated...maybe they under valued themselves.