4% Pay raise
 

Can’t wait…./s

4% above inflation could be palatable depending on what else is included and with full retro, of course.

You guys know we aren’t getting that pay raise, right?

I don’t want a 4% day raise…I want a new contract!!!

Exactly but don’t worry management slow rolls us on issues because “we would have to give it to the other employee groups”. What a slap in the face.

So a >3.9% pay cut. Marvelous.

A5S

No soup for you

So the second 4% pay raise for everyone else since 2020, and no contract for us. PLEASE ALPA, make this a point of contention.

So Delta management is giving everyone but the pilots a raise? St Paddy's Day Shenanigans!

I'm sure this won't help their recruiting efforts.

https://i.imgflip.com/69084z.jpg

They are not having recruitment issues. Pilots have never received a raise with the other employees. With the exception of the dispatchers they are all non union.

But what will the pilots say?

Ha, I was thinking the same thing. This should be the response to the company when they try to use the reverse at the negotiating table.

4% raise in 2020, 4% in 2022…when everyone else gets 4% raises next year and in 2024 when we finally get our contract, our contract better include retro

Lol.

I follow these forums quite a bit. It seems you have the reputation amongst your pilots of being a management toadie. So it's no surprise you would say that.

I made a comment the other day that they aren't having a recruiting problem since the classes are full, but my buddies over there who are actually involved in recruiting say that they are getting quantity but not quality. Apparently the days are gone when Delta was viewed as the best. Candidates with multiple offers are turning Delta down (20%) and going elsewhere. They have all heard about the crap trips and constant face slaps from management, like this deal today. The only ones you're going to keep getting are the die hard Delta or nothing kool aid drinkers who suicide rush the company because "it's the best" without caring about trip quality, advancement, or wide body opportunities, which UA and AA currently blow Delta away with.

But maybe that's what management wants. Pilots who will just drink the kool aid and not question anything. Like the non union employees. Who were just rewarded today.

I hear from my friends who are instructors that the quality of new hires has gotten so bad they are having personality/attitude issues and extra training. Apparently the lions share are now military guys without 121 time or medium to low time RJ pilots, who were never high on the maturity scale. Experienced pilots are taking their experience elsewhere.

So yeah, management shills like you will shout there's no recruiting problem, but the truth beneath the surface says otherwise. Expect that to continue unless your management wakes up and starts treating pilots fairly.

UA has more WBs, but AA doesn’t have that many more, and they also have more pilots. “Blow delta away” is hyperbole.

We’ve always hired mil pilots…what’s wrong with them now? What experienced pilots are you referring to that are going elsewhere? I imagine more of our pilots have always come from the regionals/mil than anywhere else.

That our GAS factor is now 4% lower?

Are you saying that Delta is still able to handpick any pilot they want? Or are you saying no college degree requirement, a new flow, a uniform allowance and hotels during training are starting to show the cracks in the fantasy world that Delta will always have an unlimited supply of the most experienced pilots knocking on the front door?

But put that backpack on and get the mission done!

AA blows delta away in retirements (quick advancement). UA blows Delta away in WB opportunities since they have a bunch more and new hires are getting them.

Nothing wrong with military pilots but if they've never flown 121 there's a quite a bit of a learning curve in training compared to those with lots of 121 experience. Do I really need to explain this? Look, I know you love your company and feel the need to defend it, but even you have to admit this is crap today.

If management was serious they would sit down with the union and quit stonewalling. Seems they owe the pilots at least 7% raises on day 1 now, but they have to keep up the façade that unions are bad and you get rewarded by keeping them out.

Maybe if the pilots completely lose enthusiasm things will change.

Exactly! What to they say...happy wife happy life! Can the same be applied to a pilot group or does that not matter?

Love your sense of humor!

No, I never said we did. Honestly, up until recently, every major got to handpick their pilots.

Never in recent history have all the majors been hiring so many pilots all at once. We aren’t perfect, but the grass isn’t as green as some think everywhere else. Arguing we will have a tougher time recruiting pilots than others right now isn’t true. Everyone is in the same boat. There’s a segment of all pilots that only want to be with one company. We are fighting for those undecided ones.

Hopefully (although I doubt) the company recognizes this and stops dragging their feet with our long overdue contract.

Just pointing out that we are looking to need at least a 15% increases to our current 2019 pay rates just to keep up with the losses due to inflation from 2020-2022. Assuming we actually get something in place by 2023 we're looking at close to 20%, and that doesn't account for any actual raises to the rates. So realistically we need 25% increases on day 1 of the contract to put us even with inflation + a 4-5% raise.

I don’t need to defend mother D. Not my job. I do like to keep the record straight. I’m no company cheerleader. Ed’s 1200 bucks last month didn’t give him enough good will to do management’s job.

According to the fleet count from the contact comparison, AA has 113 WBs to our 136 WBs. (We have more on order than they do as well). Not trying to start a ****ing match, but let’s be honest with numbers.

Regarding retirements, AA is retiring 27.7% of their seniority list in the next 5 years (Jan 22 - Dec 26)

If you include only 1400 of our VEOPs, combined with our retirements from Jan 22 - Dec 26…we are retiring 27.7% of our seniority list.

Again, not trying to start and internet war, but context and numbers are important.

To be perfectly frank, I’m fine with Delta giving out raises to noncons. We need talent at all levels and functions; I think we’ve all seen/felt the effects of the early out brain drain, and it’s not fun.

That being said, it is a slap in the face and we better get ours, and soon. Each day that passes without a TA, the price goes up.

One minor point, our WBs include 763 which pay only slightly more than 321/739, while AAs WBs are all 777/787. I’ve usually considered WB pay as the WB number when doing my own math.

Not until the last Moakie retires.

If you're not getting at least 10% a year then you're losing money.

That is true. The original discussion was about WB opportunities though.

Nice rant. Doesn't change the fact at all that none of it is our problem. If the quality of the recruit gets bad enough, I can guarantee you that they will bust their OEs and THAT will get management's attention. But in a sense you are right as a friend told me he has extended about 1/month on OEs for more time. When I was on that same airplane, I probably extended 1 every other year.

Still not our problem. But we do need to pay LCPs a LOT more money.

How is it a slap in the face? Should Delta withhold all pay raises until we get a contract? Should they refuse to negotiate that the dispatchers until we get a contract? Business is business. If you want to play hardball, which we do, you have to be mature enough to see the company do what they have to do to recruit and retain people in other departments.

Good for the noncons for their raise, even though it's probably wholely inadequate.

Ed was just bragging on how well the airline is doing.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2022/03/16/the-pandemic-is-over-for-delta-air-flyers-and-a-european-land-war-isnt-putting-them-off-either/

4% ain’t gonna get it done.

Did the dispatcher fall into the list of ineligible employees?



Agree, glad to see them get a raise. We certainly have to be mature enough to play hardball with the few things we legally can do....will the pilots be willing is the question.

No. The point is, everyone else shouldn't be prevented from improved pay or QOL just because we haven't signed a contract yet.

This raise is peanuts. Pure optics. 4% at the high end is what, a buck or two? If anything they should be more concerned that this is what the company thinks of them. 4% doesn't "move the needle" in these times of inflation. Not going to help pay the bills, save for college, or offset the ridiculous prices at the grocery store. I think we should be more concerned with the 200+ million they just threw at Endeavor.

I've worked a job at close to min wage and got a 6% raise once. Didn't even notice it. To get wrapped up on this is silly. 4% is nothing. Probably still less than Ed's bonus in total.

Yup I'm with you on that part. I mean good on the dispatchers for getting the raise as well, it's just interesting that they extend the pay raise to one unionized group, but not the (only) other. In the end, this is small fries, but it's worth noting.

So two 4% raises since 2020 is a 8.2% cumulative raise. That would make 737/321 pay $309. That's just keeping up with the non-cons. Nevermind inflation (still a loss) and other pilot groups.

No. They didn't. I'm saying that noncons shouldn't be prevented from getting a raise and dispatchers shouldn't be prevented from negotiating or signing a contract just because we haven't.

Because our contract has been amendable since 2019.

Did you even read the rest of my post? I literally said I’m fine with the company giving raises to attract and retain noncon talent. But I do care when the company says we can’t do X because then we’d have to give it to the other employees also, only to turn around and then do X only for the noncons.

Also, nobody is saying the noncons should be prevented from getting raises until we get ours, but ours is 3 years overdue with no end in sight :rolleyes:

Then you should say the union should cave for 4% and call it good.. Business is business. The company is going to do what it has to do to save as much money on our contract as possible and we are going to try and squeeze as much out of them as we can.

And it's been amendable since 2020. And you can't count the year+ we were losing millions a day.

Not saying we should have, but if we wanted moderate gains, we could have signed before the pandemic. But we wanted to hit a HR. We made our bed.