UPS has a TA
 

And the slow burn at Delta continues….

I’m all for having a few contracts set the bar for us. Congrats to them.

Very thankful we did not go first this time.

I'm not sure what the hand-wringing over this is about. If we got a TA with raises as small as theirs over a similar span this place would melt down.

that’s what I was thinking too. Looks like since 2019 they have gotten

2020-4%
2021-3%
2022-3%

and if this passes it will be 3%/year for 2023-2025.

If DL offered us a 10.3% raise tomorrow with 3%/ year after (and no other contract improvements), all we would hear here is how much of a POS that hypothetical TA is.

This is almost comical. UPS has endorsed the concept of short modest on time agreements to keep raises coming. We have totally rejected that concept yet guys post the UPS agreement as something good. It’s just over 150 million a year. We demanded 3 billion a year!!

Technically we did go first, but ended up last. SF will be along shortly to promote small incremental gains and he won't be wrong. We should have had a modest increase in 2020 and used the current round as basis for our 2023 PWA. Now we are negotiating two cycles worth of contracts.

Edit: SF replied before I finished typing.

This ASSUMES our management team would have agreed to a short on time contract. Which I think is beyond optimistic.

What % of pilots are on the top paying equipment at DL? 15% or so? And for how much of their careers? Maybe a quarter if they are very lucky? And that this occurs at the tail end of a career means that 16% (+ the pilots contribution) has less time to grow.
But I’m sure the leadership at ALPA will do all they can to get WB rates up at America’s biggest regional airline.

Pay rates are only one variable out of several that determine value. What do the other areas look like?

From what I have found, literally no changes except pay rates and fixed dollar increase to their pension (raises pension payment from $4,400/year per year of service to $4,650)


side note; if we ever do decide to go back down the rabbit hole of a pension, I think we should model it after UPS

-fixed dollar amount per year in retirement based on YOS not FAE ( there is an FAE calculation but from my understanding almost no one hits that over the fixed dollar amount)

-12% DC

i never lobbied for small gains. I wanted a contract in the billion dollar a year range with solid gains. That ship has sailed and it now looks like UPS and UAL have torpedoed it.

based on how our management has acted towards us and their blatant anti union rhetoric, I’m not convinced we could have gotten much at all from appeasement

plus we have several sections of our contract that desperately needed fixing thanks to what I assume came from a combination of BK and neglect from previous contract negotiations. I hope everyone here would have voted no to a 4/3/3 raise with no other improvements in 2019 only based on the information we had at the time.

I see everyone's point. I thought UPS was pay banded, so A220 and up at DL would be paying $400 an hour.

mid we got this pay for ALL our aircraft that would be a huge win, I’ll agree with that.

I thought so. I actually think the NB rates need to come up closer to WB. Why parade around a rate where a little over 100 pilots in ATL can hold at a time, our largest base. It almost makes our 330A and 350A rates irrelevant.

ATL 350A 116
ATL 330A 104
ATL 765A 68

My mistake, thanks for the correction.

Comparing 220 to UPS is like comparing RJ rates to a DL 767. The smallest plane at UPS is a 757 and makes up only 1/3 of the fleet. The other 2/3 are all WB. The most accurate DL : UPS comparison would be A330 to UPS.
FedEx has bands for NB (757 and 737) and WB, so the FedEx NB rate could be compared to DL 737/320/757. Nothing flown by the large cargo carriers is comparable to the A220 based on the industry norms of size and range.

Wow. That's a pay cut in real dollars -- not even close to keeping up with inflation or even the CPI.

A5S

(This isn't necessarily aimed at you Gunfighter) Based on a quick check of APC UPS only has one rate. So while the percentage increase isn't sparkling, the fact that ALL their pilots will make this rate (again your point about ²/3 of their fleet is WB) brings our rates into even more stark relief...

An honest comparison would look at the average pay rate across all fleets combined at each carrier. Comparing the Delta “super premium” top rate to UA when only a very small percentage of pilots actually earn it is disingenuous.

Also it’s just a pay rate. Without context of what other gains they got, it’s hard to tell. If we got an extra 2 weeks vacation, min day, 25% dc, etc. and a 10/3/3/3 raise, we might not be upset about it. A 10/3/3/3 raise stand alone with no other improvements would be a POS here.

Our 2020 extension 1.0 was a two year extension and has a 3% payraise effective 1Sept this year.

The 2022 extension 2.0 TA would be a two year extension with three payraises (4% 2023, 3.25% 2024, 3.25% on contract amendable date in 2025). Its total value is a hair shy of $478M and 45% of that value is defined benefit pension increases.

Based on your fantastic DALPA 2021 Contract Comparison, 35.6% of CAs/38.8% of FOs are on 7ER or larger equipment, with 17.7% of CAs/23.1% of FOs on 765/A332 or larger equipment.

Fortunately for you all, DALPA doesn't have to contend with NLRB-governed IBT and their 300k+ employees that can (and have publicly stated their intent to) strike when their contract expires next summer.

An 11% total pay increase after three years of 0%. HARD pass.

There is no context because that's basically all they got.

What do u mean by “3 years of 0%”?

UPS will not negotiate in good faith until the IBT contract is ratified which at the earliest would be late 2023 or early 2024. After that they will take the pilot group seriously.
Meaning nothing for us until 2025, so a contract extension, while modest, woul be better than nothing.

I dont think that is what he meant…but ok

Gone flying and Sailingfun all over this already. That 1099 consult money must be sweet!

He’s applying the UPS TA to our situation. We haven’t had a raise in 3 years so the percentage raise UPS just got would go over like a fart in church here.

So because I hope we do better, I must somehow be on management’s side?

Nobody mentioned any side? Why do you say that?

Ahh thanx for the translation

who would be paying me a 1099 for consulting based on my opinion of another airline’s TA as you accuse me of. Be specific

I’m still trying to figure out what about my opinion bothered you enough to mention me by name given my opinion is that % raise would not cut it here.

EDIT a couple UPS pilots have explained why this works for them as it relates to upcoming IBT negotiations and I get that, but I don’t think the same % pay raises and no work rule improvements is remotely acceptable for our current situation.

So you have never received monies for SM work/consulting? Not talking to the thread at point.

nope.

10 characters

I haven't had a pay increase in almost 3 years. Nobody that has been here more than 12 years has.

Good for you then. Read the latest email that came out today? What do you think?

i think it’s great and summarizes the frustration we have been feeling (at least it did for me). While I wish they had done this sooner, I can see why we would time this to our NYC investor meeting today.

hopefully we see more stuff like this.

ALSO it’s about freaking time we publicly support AFA!! For year we have known blocking this Is a major goal for management and our pilot group has lost out on numerous thing because our management and FA union optics. I can’t wait for AFA here.