No thanks. Happy to keep things as they are.

Don’t like commuting? Move to base. I’ve done this with my family several times so I don’t buy that it can’t be done. Your wife may not want to leave her home town or whatever but it’s a pain/gain calculation. It can always be done.

Don’t like our nonrev rules? Buy tix or go apply at AA, lol.

Commute from an RJ only city? Cool. I’ve done that too. The extra planning and flexibility is on you, not your employer to get to work. I’m glad you can live where you want.

The rest of this thread is just whining.

”You’ll all be senior someday” ;)

I wish we had the option to use our current non-rev benefit OR 5 or so unrestricted positive space tickets per rider, per year. I rarely travel more than that and I'd take that certainty over our current system every time. I generally buy tickets because I mostly only travel when I need to be somewhere and I hate the games people play. People double booking the JS, people checking in S3 then jumping to S2 at the last minute, or my recent favorite...the family of 7 that apparently listed as they were going through security. I certainly didn't choose this job because of the non-rev "benefit."

Thank you for the injection of sanity into the discussion.

I have both Delta and AA passes. The AA system is a mess when things get busy. All this posts about mythical employees with 5 kids constantly showing up at the last moment are extremely rare. It happens but they are probably last minute because they missed another option.

I know it’s a hypothetical, but curious about what you see as the solution? If they were listed for a week on the 1500 departure to MCO, the 1200 to MCO just canceled and they can still get through security in time to catch the 0900…do you not want them to try? Or what if the MCO just popped full and there are 8 available seats to TPA in 90 minutes?

As mentioned above, a large party is probably juggling a dozen variables that aren’t apparent to other NRSA travelers. My hunch is that nine times out of ten there’s no malicious intent, and no laziness in listing. That assumption will save folks a lot of angst (should you choose to pursue relief) when last-minute availability and listings start fluctuating.

It is what it is. Play the game…or not…or expend negotiating capital to alter the landscape.

So you are reliant on the whims of the gate agent? No thanks.
So it's not fair when misfortune that befalls someone else's plan affects yours. Got it.
AA's system sounds like a little piece of hell. I wonder how many list for unrealistic flights just so they can check in early and have a gate agent friend move their listing.

For those advocating jumpseat be also a nonrev listing, that will make commuting and nonrev more difficult not less. We have one of the best jumpseat systems out there. When you list it's as close as you'll see to positive space when nonrev. Allowing that to have priority to flow back would mean the first person to list for any flight in the listing window would be stupid not to list jumpseat, reducing jumpseats available AND making it more likely that you not get on in the back and miss the ability to get a now open jumpseat.


Also, bonus points to everyone who said that American's system stops you from seeing families come in above you last minute and then said that if you're a family in the situation most come in last minute for you still can.

Not super rare. Fairly senior FA (if not an area code, close) lives actually about five houses down from me. She has her grandkids on her travel bennies. I have not enquired how/why.

About 2-3 times a year, I see her show up with 2-4 grandkids in tow, headed to NYC to see a broadway show. Always a last minute listing, usually within 2 hours or less. I've met the mom. (she was outside waiting for them when they were returning from NYC, I was waiting on my wife to pull up.

I know they are going to a show, because they've told me. I've had Grandma as a FA on one of my trips to CDG.

This is an outstation where 50 seat RJs were the norm and 5-10 seats open was "wide open" for commuters pre covid.

But I suppose you are going to want screencaps of the pages on travelnet before you aquiesuque that it is not "exceedingly rare"

If I see it 2-3 times a year, FROM THE SAME PERSON on the late afternoon JFK or LGA flight from ORF, I'm sure it happens a lot more than I'm not aware of.. Senior person sitting reserve at home and listing at the last second? Yeah that happens.

But when someone who I think (but do not KNOW) may be slightly creatively interpreting the rules does this for leisure all the time on short notice.

How do you "know" the first part, becuase every time it's a flight you're trying to get on?

And it's not like you can be creative in interpreting the rules to get family on bennies, you have to go through the company. But if you are so convinced she's violating them, file a complaint rather than say we need to change our entire nonrev system because of one of your neighbors.

yep, with the senior people, they see 5 open seats with 5 listed and they think "I should take the grand kids to NY today, we'll be able to get on no prob" and boom, they list and they go. With the AA system that's gone, and that's a good thing.

Becuase I listed for the flight days out, saw who was listed, then checked on it as date of departure got closer. Not on there.
Lunch time, I check in. They're still not on there.
At the gate, looking at the NRSA list.. Still not there (not even listed, never mind checked in)
Just over an hour to push, BOOM. They are there. 15 minutes later they show up.

So yes, I know it is a last minute listing.

Pretty easy to check.. But I can't post travel net screencaps.

Go to Nonrev listings.

Put in city pairs. In my case I put in ORF-NYC for tomorrow.

First flight tomorrow 0610 to LGA has TWO nonrevs listed. You see that by hitting the thing that looks like a paper for STBY LISTING
That makes a popup with NONREV STANDBY LIST come up.
You can see who has listed and what their date of hire and status is.
You can then press VIEW AIRPORT STANDBY LIST and you will see who has already checked in

So yes, I can tell if people are listed, ahead of time, and what status they are.

Easier said than done as interest rates top 7% on their way up to 9-10%. So easy to “move to base.”

She’s worked here longer than you. That’s how it works.

You can do the same thing. While it’s polite to list early if you know your plans, it is not required. Good for grandma taking the kiddos up to the city and enjoying her well-earned benefits.

maybe they were grandfathered in?

Congrats to you and your family having that flexibility. Not an option for many people including myself. I HATE this line of reasoning. Try again.

Were you aware of this when you accepted your employment?

Pain/gain calculation. If you want to make it happen it can be done.

Thats the beauty of this job. You can live anywhere. Just don’t expect the rest of the company to absorb your inconvenience. I say that not condescendingly, but as one that has commuted the majority of my career from near and (very) far.

Driving to work doesn’t always win, and I will likely go back to commuting once I get kids out of the house.

Not getting into my personal details and situation, but no. Again, this is a tone deaf argument for not commuting....

Yeah....but those high rates are driving housing prices down so it is a wash. 😁🤣

To dispel a rumor here, if you want to have kids on your account, they MUST be listed as dependents and verified through HR. If they aren't her dependents, she's defrauding the company and the government.

She is 100% in violation of Delta’s rules. How that is a example for anything I don’t know. I had as good a reason as anyone to have my granddaughter on my pass privileges and it’s not allowed.

Exactly!! Nobody wants to move out of a 2% mortgage into a 7% mortgage. Housing prices are still elevated and have to fall considerably before lateral housing moves are possible with similar payments.

Even if financially equivalent, moving to base won't ever be a consideration for a large portion of the pilot group because of outside influences that are a higher priority than Delta. The current industry staffing crisis requires that airlines and air lines cater to commuting employees. You can't keep the airline running without commuters, it's a fact. If the commute hassle becomes too great, they lose a significant portion of the workforce. If commuting becomes too difficult, new hires will look for employment closer to home. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the larger population in TX, FL and IL favor airlines with large bases in those states. NYC and LAX are a draw. The only way Delta remains competitive for new hires in a non-commuting world is with bases in TX and FL.

Employing commuters is a choice and the company knows it.

I understand your reasoning with your response . I’m not making a jab at you at all but just trying to counter your response . We all knew the deal when we accepted the job but things change. Just like we all try to get better pay and benefits . Why do we all fight for better pay and contracts at 9E and Delta ? Shouldn’t we all just accept the crap contracts we had when we got hired ? No , it’s a continual evolution. The old way for decades of commuters getting to and from work has gotta go . PS to and from work helps both parties tremendously. Just call it even and keep PS to and from work and move on to the other things in the contracts that need improvement.

I get that it is what it is, which is why I often choose not to play the game and buy tickets. My idea for a solution is the bolded part of your post and my post quoted above. I'd even be ok having a limit of say, 4 pass riders, under my option (not the current non-rev option). I understand I'm likely an outlier, which is fine, I'll just continue to buy my tickets and not let the employee, with a basketball team of kids, list last minute and blow up my plans. Like positive space commuting was, it's so much less stress that way.

E-Bay players, also known as ninja-nonrevs.

I completely agree. Burns has been going into new hire classes and stating that PSC will likely not return, all while encouraging them to move to base. In this hiring environment those pilots are simply going to leave for another carrier closer to home as soon as the opportunity presents.

The old mentality of “We’re going to do nothing to accommodate commuters, and if you don’t like it you can just move to Atlanta.” won’t cut it here anymore. Delta needs to improve its commuting policies and/or base offerings if it wishes to attract the best possible talent in the years to come. United is exploring the idea of opening new pilot bases for this very reason.

I haven’t seen signs that Delta believes it must do anything to attract the best talent…nor that it actually values or rewards talent.

I’m not even being facetious; am I missing anything in the public messaging, compensation package, or company policies that leads others to believe otherwise? Are my years of service here an anomaly?

Who cares if it’s a last minute listing, nothing wrong with it or against any rules. They’re exercising their seniority. I list last minute for flights all the time, changing my routing to ensure making a connection & probability of better seats..depending on the matrix of Equipment, Weather, loads, connection times, ect ect ect. AND…I might have listed, checked in & cleared security and be sitting at a gate and change my mind…list for a different flight and GASP…burn an S-2. It’s my right to exercise my seniority on my travel benefits as I see fit. As far as the Grandmother working the system to take her grandkids….blah blah blah….how do you know those kids aren’t her dependents. Lotsa grandparents raising kids. How do you know she didn’t adopt kids later in life.

Exercise YOUR seniority as you see fit with within the rules and mind your own business when we exercise ours. Don’t like it?

Buy a ticket.

Therein lies the problem - the hubris of our management team is too great for them to realize that anything needs to be done to attract quality talent at Delta. Delta may have offered the best pilot job in the industry at one time, but I’m finding it increasingly hard to recommend us to any of my friends who are applying to the major airlines today (aside from those who already live in our bases).

By the time our management team figures out that there is a need to make Delta more attractive to new hires, our competitors will already be well ahead of us.

Maybe at the regional level? They do own a regional airline that is imploding due to a pilot shortage. I’m sure Skywest is pushing them to give something/anything to be able to keep their planes staffed. Maybe that will flow up to us?

A few years ago (2018-2019) I frequently saw active status 197X DOH employees on my commute, none of them were ever pilots.

On a couple occasions I saw WB As on that route who could not get FC while 2-3 people senior to them did.

Lemme guess….DFW-ATL

Um, I've met their mom. She lives on my street. The grandkids do not live with her. You know, stuff I posted earlier.

But hey, I suggest a system that may work, but here come the "HURR DURR BUY A TICKET"

Boomers.

nope, FL to DTW

Same with EAL non rev procedures. That would be nice to have implemented.

Legit question……what other major airline provides Positive Seats to/from work for pilots?

JetBlue. Extended until January.

In a round-about kind of way…FedEx with their travel account.

United is actually being forward-thinking by looking at adding crew bases in popular places to live. EWR, DEN, and SFO just don’t cut it for most people with the cost of living being what it is and inflation/mortgage interest rates ravaging middle class income and wealth.

With flights more full than ever, interest rates steadily rising, single-family home affordability nearly out of reach for most, and bases in high cost of living cities pilots simply can’t/won’t move to base. And an awful commute will only be put up with for so long. Pilots will leave. Legacy airlines are good jobs, but they aren’t even close to what they used to be. There is better quality of life to be had at the LCCs and you’ll make darn near comparable pay.

The legacy airline job has been steadily eroded and at the same time the LCC and major jobs have gotten way better. Hell regional Captains are making more than legacy Captains at this point. Cost of living is through the roof and home affordability is at an all-time low. There isn’t a single base at Delta that is even remotely appealing to most new hires unless they already live there or have family that does. Like it or not Delta is going to have to change with the changing times or be left in the dust. It’s a different world and a different airline than the one many of you came up in.

So LCC carriers are basically SWA and JB. Do the ULCC carriers offer a better quality of life and make darn near the pay of legacy carriers?