It would be a part of the calculus. The Note and Claim were technically given in exchange for all of the contractual concessions. If it had been categorized as a payment specifically for the retirement plan termination, then the PBGC could have had a legal claim for at least a portion of it, if not arguably all of it when they became the trustee of the plan. By making it in exchange for all of the contractual changes, that eliminated that possibility.

The pilots mentioned previously with an accrued benefit of <$500 per month would have had a share of the Note and Claim that would have fit entirely within a single year's DC plan (401k) without hitting the limit. Pilots like the example pilot hired in 1988 would have had their DC Plan maxed out for the year of the distribution as well as the next year (there was a negotiated mechanism to allow this in order to avoid paying any taxes on the monies) and then received the remaining amount as taxable income. It took a bunch of years and a lot of effort by the MEC Gov Affairs Committee in conjunction with ALPA National to eventually get legislation passed that allowed those pilots to recover some of the taxes paid on that. IIRC, the contributions were made for 2006/2007 and the taxable event occurred in 2007, but it could have been 2007/2008 with the taxable event in 2008. I forget what year the tax recovery legislation took place. The contribution limits to a DC were $44,000 in 2006, $45,000 in 2007 and $46,000 in 2008. The first year of the contribution was toward the end of the year (which is why I'm pretty sure it had to be 2006) and at that point everyone already had personal and company contributions of some amount in there, so it wasn't the full $44,000. The second year contribution came right at the beginning of January and filled them up.

Like I said originally, it's a very complex calculation and everyone's $ amounts were different. That's why it's been difficult to really put a precise guardrail around "what is a Deadzoner". 2 pilots with similar payouts coming out of bankruptcy, but different investing strategies, could today have wildly different retirement account balances 15 years later.

Right? If we are being inclusive, could we include practical uniforms for pilots that live in cold areas? Nobody is avoiding SWA because their pilots have professional "zip-ups".

I received $27,000. and $2334. a month, (PBGC) my lump when available in 1992 was $363,000. prior to that my monthly was $5400.

Yea, but, after all these years and the COLA on your PBGC, that $2334 per month has to be a HUUUUGE monthly check now!!!!:eek::cool::rolleyes:

I'll just beat some others to it to save them time...."Yea Gramps, you should have saved better and not splurged on those 3 wives and 4 extra houses!!" <sarc>

A true travesty....but you voted for it(more <sarc>)

Feel bad(empathetic) for you. We should have prioritized work rules, pay AND retirement equally over the intervening contracts.

That's life.... Wait till you get the two button roll and your cajones turn purple.

Individual payouts are wildly variable, and dependent on a multitude of factors, including retirement status, age, how long between retirement and plan termination, any lump sum distribution. Generally, there are 3 numbers you care about: PC3, PC4 and PC5. PC3 are benefits that are being paid, or potentially could be paid, 3 years prior to the plan's termination date. PC4 are the PBGC guaranteed benefits, and PC5 is kind of a "what's left over".

From the PBGC's own website:

"Because PC3 benefits come ahead of PBGC-guaranteed benefits (PC4) in the allocation structure, a participant or beneficiary who went into pay status (or could have gone into pay status) three or more years before plan termination potentially may receive his or her full plan benefit amount, even if it is not all guaranteed by PBGC. This would occur if all of a participant's benefit is in PC3 and the plan's assets are sufficient to cover all benefits in PC3.If a plan's assets do not cover all benefits in PC3, each participant or beneficiary with a PC3 will receive a pro rata share of the assets. The PBGC determined that the Pilots Plan's assets as of DOPT ($1,984,977,782) covered 93.03847% of the Pilots Plan's benefits in PC3." This means these folks may get payments above the PBGC max.

Generally, folks retired more than 3 years before bankruptcy did OK. Understand, though, we're only talking about the qualified portion of the DB plan. The non-qualified part, or that which is based on income beyond the IRS 401(A)(17) limits, is lost, as they are generally paid out of general corporate funds. These are sometimes known as "excess plans".

Folks who were not able to retire more than 3 years prior get pretty reduced benefits, usually the PBGC max guarantee. People who retired, or could retire after plan termination, well, yea, that's worse. Sometimes these folks can do better if there is any plan money left over from the PC3 payouts, but I don't think there was in this case.

This is all from memory, so could be wrong on all of the broad or fine points. From personal experience, I know a USAir retiree, who retired under their "parity contract" (basically averaging UAL/DAL/AMR plus some on rates...not a bad deal at all) more than 3 years before their bankruptcy and plan termination. The way he talked, he was getting close to his full benefit, and I remember him saying there wasn't a day that went by that he was thankful he retired when he did.

If I'm misinformed, please explain.

here's the definition:
in a literal manner or sense; exactly

Come on guys, back on topic, we need to argue about pensions again.

Sorry my bad, I brought it up as a correction when someone said pensions were gone here. I was just mentioning that I will be getting one as a former NWA pilot.

I hate the fabric of the new uniform, feels cheap and thin. (The grey looks nasty too)