Define operational need. I see communications from the CPO’s bringing up this subject and yet they too fail to define operational need. If there is a fire while deplaning they try to make the point that a pilot should be there. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. A flight in Atlanta would never get out on time if they made us stick around during the turns they schedule.

Blue juice … tell us you don’t fly narrowbody domestic without telling us you don’t fly narrowbody domestic.

Train engineers still have a pension!

Since they were offered a flow already, that comment not only doesn't make sense but is an unnecessary attack. At this point the QC point is out the window, I'd much rather get the flying in house while there is a potential to.

How about we just don’t bring the 900’s in house and instead lease them out and send the rest to the desert? SkyWest and Republic need plenty of Captains right now. The ULCC’s need plenty of FO’s with 121 experience. Stapling a regional you already own and operate is unnecessary.

So do postal carriers. I wouldn’t trade.

Yes, Train drivers are awesome and a heck of a great job. The Railroads have deep pockets with great retirement plans and great pensions , unlike the airlines . Yes you can make a lot more money as an international captain at the airlines and save more for 401K, but after they pay for their 3rd wife it all evens out .

So does (did) the military. Being an airline pilot is a choice.

Ok Tropical , how old are you , like 25 or something ? How many hours did you get hired at Delta with ? Under 3000? How are pilots that have 20 to 30 years flying WO Metal with 30,000 hours “undesirable” ? and how is that kind of experience a free ride ? Double LOL. You haven’t busted your but anywhere near that kind of experience . You don’t know what’s happened in anyone’s life to judge and make that kind of statement. The last 10 years of hiring at majors doesn’t even require a simulator evaluation anymore during interviews. I would be much more concerned about all the low timers by the thousands that are hired by majors with minimal experience.

This.^^^^

And pilots at regionals have been flying Delta pax on jets since the 1994 and turbo props well before that. If there's a QC problem that's on Delta, they hired me and all my subpar friends. NWA hired connection and Delta hired airlink well before the merg.

I swear some people go out of their way to be as miserable as possible. Thank god this forum isn’t a representation of life on the line, for me.

So do lots of Delta employees (and pilots) point?

You’re referencing conversations here at Delta, but you’re actually probably correct. I bet his management would fire him, or try to, for not wearing the prescribed uniform correctly. I wonder if the SEIU (?) would defend him if he got disciplined for it.

which pilots still have pensions ? Fed Ex and UPS do I think but other than that no one. Hopefully everyone’s 401K doesn’t go by the way of Silicon Valley Bank. 💀

So a customer is about to buy a $700 ticket for their trip and sees one priced at $699 (DL, DBJ and hat adorned pilots) and another ticket for $698 (OL, their pilots wearing no fancy hat or jacket). Guess which ticket gets sold.

I'll wear whatever's required but have no illusion it drives customer purchasing decisions.

I’m not hating, just want to share another opinion:

It’s not the single line item, it’s part of the whole package which drives purchase decisions. The kind of customer we want is the one who is influenced by what we deem trivial uniform. Those same ones are influenced by the bamboo cutlery, personalized bag tags, parade sponsorships, sustainable fuel, etc. Yes, we are cheap airline pilots and trip over each other to pick up a nickel and happily brag on our steals at Costco. We wouldn’t be bamboozled paying full price for first class tickets or using the company card for full fare coach. I argue we don’t understand the uniform impact because we aren’t the customer influenced by it. (Other than microagression influence of headphones and backpacks on both shoulders which scream guard-meow). The managers are making the revenue premium on customers that will pay extra for the experience: empty middle seats during Covid, premium select, comfort+, free internet, tv screens with current content, nice new terminals like LAX, SLC, and LGA. It’s called product segmentation and (perceived) product differentiation on an otherwise commodity. We’ll happily take the family of 5 with crying babies that sit in the last row in basic economy, but the money is made on less price sensitive customers that spoil their fur babies with refrigerated dog food. The uniform isn’t the deal breaker- just like a car with 8 cup holders doesn’t tip the scale on one with only 7, rather it’s part of the whole calculus.

I agree, I am not influenced by the waitress wearing sweat pants serving chicken fingers. Good food is good food. But the customers with loose wallets want their waiter in a suit if they’re going to fork over a hefty bill.

True, but which do the ladies prefer when being told "I'm a pilot;)...no no miss I'm not giving you a ticket. No. Ma'am I don't- no. Ma'am no. I'm not- no I'm not security. I don't know. Because ma'am I've never been here befo- no I'm a pilot. Yes a pilot. Of the plane, the airplane. Yes, I do. Ok have a nice day."

Bingo.

filler

Considering we have a revenue premium, which by definition means people pay more to fly on us. The answer is obvious that they will run to pay the extra $1 for a Delta ticket.

Customers also don't buy tickets based on what our flight attendants look like.

The revenue premium collected is not for the DBJ or hat. It is for the DL package, as mentioned above. I'll suggest it's due to the on-time performance, irop recovery (which the customer just sees as DL's "plan B" when things go bad), free bag, decent check-in experience, bording, in-flight comfort and amenities. We also get more for the origination/destination pairings and frequency of flights. These are the things customers are willing to pay a bit more for. Not the pilot costume. It helps convey the image, and the marketing of the brand, but no one has ever said, "I'll pay more to see that DBJ and hat". Instead, they'll pay more to get from "A to B" in reasonable comfort and the least amount of hassle.

The most likely thing a pilot can wear that will impress a customer is a smile. Everyone's got one and it doesn't cost a thing.

This. Standing at the door and saying goodbye is 1000% more impactful than the specific kind of uniform you wear. As long as it's worn professionally and clean, 90% of the people won't even know it's changed. Of the 10% that do, they'll shrug and say "oh, I liked the other one better but who cares what they are wearing."

You're getting North Face jackets?

People are talking about the uniform as if it were a binary scale. It’s obviously not. But let’s use that to illustrate, using some hyperbole.

If you were to walk into a Ritz Carlton, and see the people behind the desk, the bellhop, the doorman… All dressed in ratty sweatpants, what would you think about the business?

Conversely, if you went into a less-than-luxury, but decent hotel, and all the employees you met were dressed well above the competition, with well fitting, professional, and coordinated uniforms, what would you think of that hotel? Even if their behavior was bland…

Said ‘uniforms’ are not the sole determiner of your experience. That’s laughable. But don’t fool yourself into thinking that doesn’t play an important role in the overall impression with which you walk away from that business. Nor, that “literally no one would care”. I don’t honk the people saying that actually believe that.

If a business is trying to set itself apart, as Delta management clearly is (and successfully so, as evidenced by our “revenue premium”), the image & behavior of it’s employees, especially the ‘flagship’ pilots, is important. Why do you think PB has such a **** over the hats? Seriously.

We can disagree on the level it matters, but it’s not binary.

Yeah, but your analogy is flawed. First, because we don't wear sweatpants. We wear business suits. And we only do it 1/4 of the year. They clearly aren't THAT important if management and marketing only make us wear them during some of the slowest months of the year and when we are busy, it's a large portion of once a year travelers.

​​​​​​Your analogy would make sense if you and everyone else can tell me without looking up online what color their jackets are and how many buttons they have.

I wonder what the definition is of, "A reading comprehension problem"? Is that when somebody reads to just to argue and fails to understand the overarching theme?

It's a bad analogy because we are all arguing about one or two rows of buttons and he comes in and argues that people would notice if Ritz employees were wearing sweatpants. Of course they would. But we aren't arguing if people would notice if we started wearing our pajamas to work. We are arguing whether our legafy uniform makes people want to book with us.

I don’t think he was arguing rows of buttons, but an actual uniform and what I can do for the overall brand image.

Fair enough..there are enough quotes and enough people arguing different nuances. I agree it's important to look professional. That includes wear the designated uniform. I don't think the specific uniform matters, as long as it looks professional.

I agree 100%

some (not all) former NW pilots have a frozen pension. In some cases it’s worth a substantial amount.

Most DL pilots hired prior to 9/11 have a PBGC benefit. It may not be a pension but it’s an annuity that’s paid out for the rest of their life.

Worth noting this isn’t much of a benefit at all for those hired in the late 90s- early 2000s. But from the numbers thrown around by guys hired in the 80s and early 90s, it’s not insignificant.

The QC is presumably the mandated qualification testing. Clearly they meet the QC standards of Delta corporate since they keep them on payroll. The real test though is if you are going to refrain from the free ride in the back. If you don't feel too unsafe to nonrev with them then they must be ok. Anything else is posturing. "We only fly mainline in this house!"

Literally everyone from the bankruptcy era except pre merger Delta pilots has a frozen pension.

yeah. Pretty effed up they froze everyone else’s pension but terminated the pilots.

The pilots voted for it.

Watch out, you are going to wake up the we had no choice crowd.

Is that the same crowd that says they did it to save Delta so that everyone else could get hired here? "Without us doing that, you wouldn't even be here!"

Does ANYONE know what literally means????? and oh, BTW not true.

Literally no one does.

Not exactly true, I am former NWA w a frozen pension.