AUS high winds
 

Nice to see Delta was the only airline refusing to go. OP's should highlight this as smart decision making.

https://youtu.be/jIzbqiIY8B8?si=TiZsegL8k1GXgwlx

I'm shocked Skywest was able to depart with those winds. If they must account for the gusts, that's a 40-knot crosswind! Does Skywest not include the gusts or have a crosswind limit?

Skywest used to have no crosswind limits if the CA made the landing. It was implemented a few years ago. Can’t say for certainty what caused it but it did get implemented not very long after we had a CRJ fly into RDU mid hurricane.

Expressjet didn't have a crosswind limit either. It seemed like a point of pride. I remember having to look out the side window in the flare to let the captain know the wingtip wasn't going to scrape. Dumbest thing I ever did.

That pilot crosswind limitation was created around 2021, but it is not an aircraft limitation. The FAA wanted to standardize CRJ operations across different carriers, and the limit was a result of that.

Since gust values change frequently, it is up to the crew to assess whether it is safe to takeoff once they are actually at the runway. It is not a non-dispatch type of situation. The takeoff crosswind limitation in the CRJ-700 was 30 knots, and the CRJ-900 32 knots.

I didn’t get the impression that he was “refusing“ to go, I felt like they were just shutting the engines down because the airport had closed because of the incident and they knew they’d be sitting there for a little while. Regardless, no one is going to stop our operation except for the Captains. No one in OCC is stopping anything. Until an airport closes they just keep the train chugging along.

The FOM clearly gives captains the authority to the delay a flight but not cancel one. I’ve used that card before.

Just because a flight arrives at its destination, does not mean that it was a done safely or responsibly. sometimes I wish more of us would have that versus the historic go go go mission driven mindset. This airline has clearly stated that they will back us up when we make safety related decisions.

Good discussion

At the beginning of the video, the Delta flight already has their engines shut down before the incident even happened.

We have crosswind limit guidance that are adjusted by braking action. Takeoff/land above them at the risk of your peril. I once diverted because a Delta 320 braking action poor, which put us well over the company's recomended x-wind limt. As I was flying away, there were Delta planes landing behind me. But quickly, I think guys caught on to my explanation of my divert decision as I heard quite a few pipe up and divert. We're not putting bombs on target, no reason to hang it out there.

I'm curious why any flight operations were attempted after an inbound landed and reported "wind shear with a 20-knot loss."

I worked for a regional 15 years ago that allowed up to 20 knot gain/loss, but since then I thought all major operators reduced that to 15 knots. Are any airlines still allowing operations with over a 15-knot airspeed loss? Also, it didn't sound like ATC passed that info along to anyone who wasn't on frequency then.

That Elite Air flight took one for the team and saved the rest of the aircraft planning to takeoff and land from making a mistake.

Well said. Whenever an FO asks me about challenges from the left seat, I always mention the fact that we are the ONLY people at the airline that get paid to say “no” from time to time. The entire apparatus is set up to go, go, go. It can feel like you’re on an island when you put the brakes on the operation, but that level of backbone is what is sometimes required. Operators at shops without strong safety cultures don’t have the luxury that we have with a highly effective safety structure at ALPA backing us up. We’ve all known outfits where if you didn’t want to take the jet, they would find someone who would. It’s a terrible way to operate, but they exist. Once you realize you won’t “get in trouble” for putting your foot down, it’s liberating. Sadly, at UAL, we’ve recently let go of some who viewed each flight as a mission to be completed at all costs. One particular new Captain was fired for flying right through a line of weather, causing injuries. His response to the FO was that’s what the company pays me to do! No, the company pays you to be smart, but his mindset from his regional was tough to shake. And no, it’s not a regional slam, just that particular one that shall remain nameless. Bottom line, kudos to the CAPTAIN for being the voice of reason.

You had a crosswind limit. The airplane is certifed to a crosswind limit and the OPs manual will state that.

I asked this to one of our higher ups in Flight Ops, basically they said you can still attempt it, just once you get the +\-15 discontinue and go from there. Just becuase someone else experienced it doesnt mean that you will.

I was behind Spirit and they reported 20kt loss, after 2 attempts and hearing that I discontined approach and went somewhere else. So I guess some do have different standards.

In general I'm more conservative than I was 27 years ago as a newly minted CRJ captain. Age and experinence have smoothed the edges you could say. This is truly my only worry when DHing mostly on regionals but even with our young captains. The flip side is that they seem more procedural oriented and are CRM conscious as opposed to the old school captain's judgement is good enough and the captain is king. I don't really worry about it or I wouldn't get on the jet. Just things you think about when you are relegated to aft ballast. My younger me would think I'm slow but the current me sees it as deliberate. I'm glad attitudes have changed from mission to safety.

At my regional the joke was, "whats the weather at destination? who care's were going anyway!"

This is a bad practice in general. Granted out of 10,000 flights I've only actively delayed a flight twice for weather and both were short flights with massive t-storm lines hitting the field right as we'd get there. Waited an hour and all good. Much tougher to justify on a 3+ hour flight when things can change. On a long haul it would be impossible.

I'm guessing that it comes from the mid-20 somethings bravado and lack of wisdom. I'm an outstanding pilot, I can make it happen. Now I'm like have at it buddy, I'll be right here waiting it out...preferably off the gate with the clock ticking lol.

sprinkle on top of that operational pressure from the regional to get credit for the departures to make the mainline partner happy. I remember getting dispatched to Minot twice with tailwinds far exceeding aircraft limits into the 1 ILS in there, but we had ceilings and vis so “technically it was legal”.

This is misleading. I've "cancelled" a few flights over my many years here. It wasn't hard to do either. One was back in my M-88 days. Blizzard in ROC. Our airplane had MELs for thrust reverser and the autobrake/autospoiler system. I wasn't taking that jet up to ROC in a blizzard. We talked about getting a spare, but none were available. Cancelled.

For the younger captains here with not a huge "knowledge of aviation reserve" - never be afraid to speak up about something like this. If you, or your FO, or both of you have reservations about the situation. Stop. Make a call. In all my years here as a Captain, I've never been questioned about a safety call. Ever.

Unless they made adjustments after I left a few years ago, the crosswind limitation is calculated from the sustained winds— gusts are not applied.

Im sure the pressure to take an unairworthy airplane here pales in comparison to the regional level. Hell, didn’t even get sent home or to the hotel after landing with crash trucks. Just get a new plane and file your ASAP when able.

Off the top of my head a couple of odd ones during pax ops: 1) we were approved for flight unpressurized 2) with the landing gear pinned down.

I refused to be crew on an airplane at the regionals once (as FO) because the seat track was deferred and they would have to safety wire it to my preferred seating position. Nope no thanks. What if we need to evacuate?? Company solution - spent an hour trying to replace me first.

10000 feet 320 KIAS IAH-CVG. No pressurization but the ram air kept the cabin at 6500 feet. Doubt I'd do that now. A buddy did a 3 engine ferry on a 4 engine "regional" jet. That was a fun story.

Max demonstrated X-wind isn’t a limit unless the operator makes it one, Like DL does. OO did not when I was there.

This week, several flights were held at the gate due to crosswinds exceeding limits..some for hours .

I'm pretty sure xjt didn't have a crosswind limitation either...I definitely remember some gnarly crosswind landings 15 years ago that I would definitely not attempt today in a Delta jet.

My first two flights on OE at Pinnacle on a CRJ-200 had the landing gear pinned down

Sorry, what? You're honestly claiming that no one in the OCC, is stopping an operation due to unsafe conditions at a destination? You do realize you're alledging an FAR violation, right?

a delta air line pilot would NEVER make a such an error in judgement. Even if the book allowed it.

OCC doesn’t always have direct visibility into every unsafe condition at every destination. More often than not, it’s the captain’s responsibility to stop the operation.

The only time a FAR violation would occur is if the OCC is aware (or reasonably should be aware) of an unsafe condition and they dispatch a flight into it anyway.

There's only one man who'll slow/stop the operation, and it's the captain.

That's what the big bucks are for.

Even if you're wrong. (*) Final authority, yadda yadda.

*(We learn by doing. In 3 decades and 4 Part 121 carriers I've never received a phone call for diverting, delaying, or refusing an aircraft. Take from that what you will.)

Where are these big bucks?! 😂

You sure about that? I've been in this game for a while in both seats, albeit more time in the right seat than the left. On more than a few occasions from the right seat I've had to look the other guy square in the eye and say "hey boss, I think we oughta rethink this". Every single time, the captain has thanked me for the "moment of clarity" and then bought the beers. Never for a moment think you don't have a voice from ANY seat (left, right OR center) to say "hold on a minute, let's think this through and be sure we're sure". That is all.

Delta has multiple meteorological sources and always uses the most favorable one. They are oriented to go, not stop. As are all airlines and charter ops. This isn't news.

So you're saying that after your recommendation, the Captain stopped the operation? :D I have done the same and yes FOs need to speak up, but I don't think the poster was saying that FOs don't have a say in stopping the operation.

I had a flight last week where the dispatcher messaged to have us wait to push until the next metar came out because the current winds were above limits. It struck me as excessive given the forecast and 2 alternates, but they certainly are looking at it.

Would that be like if a X-wind limit were exceeded?

And did they tell you that because they wanted to be just legal to go or because the next METAR might demonstrate that it was within limits and safe to operate in there? Legit question.

Of course they are and of course it isn't. The point being that *no one* in the OCC will stop an usafe operation is probably not accurate. The dispatchers have no incentive to push anyone to operate and can themselves be on the hook for doing so.

In theory you’re correct. In practice, I’ve had dispatchers plan me with routing that was right through areas of moderate turbulence for hours because it saves some fuel, or deferrals that needed to be addressed, or planned fuel loads that left no wiggle room for contingencies. So, while they may have skin in the game, the reality is that it almost always falls to the Captain to say no when appropriate. Oddly, every time I’ve changed the orginal plan(added gas, refused a jet for an MEL item that wasn’t suitable, changed the route/altitude for rides or weather) the dispatcher ALWAYS said they agreed. That tells me that their instincts are good, but perhaps the pressure from their higher ups often times overrides their instincts, and they are waiting for us to make the call. I’ve had dispatchers answer the phone by saying “I was expecting your call!”

Not in every case.

I requested extra fuel for deice the other day and was told they can't because we were payload optimised. I didn't push the issue because I figured it would be tight but ok. We waited to start and when we got to the deice line we shut down. I made it work and then kept asking for short cuts. It all worked out but had I said no, his tone told me there was going to be a resistance. In the end we landed over min fuel so no issues but the gray area was black and white for him. I did make 2 non-revs happy though.

”Payload optimized” LOL. In a case like that, simply telling him that he will have to remove a bit of payload because safety trumps revenue, is the proper course of action, IMO.