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OOfff 11-06-2025 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 3967335)
In a perfect world they would pay more only by virtue of a flat tax.

why is a flat percentage more fair than a flat rate? x dollars, not x%. i don’t use more road than a poorer person.

notEnuf 11-06-2025 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 3967335)
In a perfect world they would pay more only by virtue of a flat tax.

It has to do with intent. If you are operating for profit it assumes you are profiting and taxing fuel is fair because it integrates with the cost of operations. The ATC system is structured around commerce. The benefit to everyone else is shared continuity and safety. The interstate system is operated the same way. This is the common good principle interstate commerce is founded on. Fuel tax will eventually transition to include whatever energy source is used to "fuel" vehicles.

GogglesPisano 11-06-2025 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OOfff (Post 3967353)
why is a flat percentage more fair than a flat rate? x dollars, not x%. i don’t use more road than a poorer person.

I can see the argument for user fees for government services (sort of like HOA fees that have nothing to do with income) instead of income-based taxation. But that would never pass political muster. For now we'll stick with the top 1% paying 50% of the taxes.

Freds Ex 11-06-2025 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 3967332)
ATC services (clearances, vectors, separation ..)



These can be (and currently are) captured by landing fees. Completely separate from ATC user fees.

Right now the airlines are subsidizing GA by a wide and unfair margin via the fuel tax. Users should pay for what they use.

airports do not fund themselves on landing fees alone. They receive millions in FAA funding which gets a lot of money from fuel taxes, fines, income tax, etc.

Airlines are not subsidizing GA at all. The overwhelming majority of ATC system would be *almost* completely unnecessary if all airlines ceased to exist, got replaced by trains, and GA was the only thing left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 3967334)
We're not talking airport resources, which are captured by landing fees. We're talking ATC services. A vector, separation services, flight plan filing. Granted the 777 requires more separation, and their fees would be higher.

But you haven't explained why taxing fuel is the most fair solution. You've just resorted to ad hominems. Let's take two flights from NYC to MIA. One is a Citation and it burns 6,000 pounds of fuel. The other is a 777 and it burns 60,000 pounds. Do you really think the 777 was 10x the burden on ATC?



User fees are successfully used in Canada, UK and Germany.




https://freakonomics.com/podcast/is-...system-broken/

again I don’t know why you keep advocating for user fees when we already are taxed more enough to fund ATC. The issue is that not even close to 100% of that tax money isn’t going back into aviation. Aviation is a cash cow for politicians to fund their social programs and other bridges to nowhere.

I see citations manage their own separation just fine at busy non-towered airports, can’t say the same for 777s

Quote:

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 3967335)
In a perfect world they would pay more only by virtue of a flat tax.

In a perfect world there would be only user/consumption fees, no flat tax, and no inflation, but we abandoned all of that in 1913 and we don’t stand a chance of getting back. Too many people and companies enjoy living off the government now.

GogglesPisano 11-06-2025 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freds Ex (Post 3967454)


again I don’t know why you keep advocating for user fees when we already are taxed more enough to fund ATC. The issue is that not even close to 100% of that tax money isn’t going back into aviation. Aviation is a cash cow for politicians to fund their social programs and other bridges to nowhere.

I see citations manage their own separation just fine at busy non-towered airports, can’t say the same for 777s

I agree that a lot of aviation taxes are siphoned off for other interests. That's why we should eliminate fuel taxes and charge a service fee (those theoretically couldn't be siphoned off.) Give that Freaknomics podcast a listen. In the case of the Citation at non-towered airports, they wouldn't be charged a fee, the 777 at a major airport would. See how it works?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freds Ex (Post 3967454)
In a perfect world there would be only user/consumption fees, no flat tax, and no inflation, but we abandoned all of that in 1913 and we don’t stand a chance of getting back. Too many people and companies enjoy living off the government now.

On this we agree.

Freds Ex 11-06-2025 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 3967466)
I agree that a lot of aviation taxes are siphoned off for other interests. That's why we should eliminate fuel taxes and charge a service fee (those theoretically couldn't be siphoned off.) Give that Freaknomics podcast a listen. In the case of the Citation at non-towered airports, they wouldn't be charged a fee, the 777 at a major airport would. See how it works?



On this we agree.

The citation at the major airport would, though.

But while you have some good points, the reality is that even if user fees are ushered in, the fuel tax is not going away. Therefore user fees should not even be floated as an idea.


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