Really? $1,260,000 worth of DAL? No wonder you're voting no. You fly airplanes for a hobby.

Immaterial.

This TA sucks.

Scambo,

If you are one of the relatively few FO's that makes more than the CA's they fly with then I get it. It will impact your niche.

I've done the math and for me and many others it is a significantly positive contract. Not the one I wanted, but it's not "spun costs" unless you're the guy that gets all of his trips bought every month. I understand why that guy would be ****ed.

I'm not dismissing the reps that are speaking out against it. However I've read what they wrote and have come to a different conclusion.

My flame on comment was referring to the wave of negativity in this echo chamber. Anyone who dare speak up that they see some positives in this TA is labelled a coward, weak, Stockholm syndrome'd, mathematically challenged, or my new favorite....traitor :rolleyes:

Please do not destroy the next 30 years of my life. Im asking you to reconsider your decision based on not what we gain, but what we lose. If you think fast money now is worth the loss of widebody opportunities (less money), small narrowbody growth to replace aging larger narrowbody aircraft (less money), seniority stagnation (less money and QOL), the sick policy changes that nobody can admit to liking, less PS, and higher TLV, well then Id like to know how much of a raise would have convinced you to vote yes? 1%? So basically any money now would have been your rational to give up everything else in the contract? This is not a decision to be taken lightly. There are so many strings attached to this TA why risk it?

+1^^^^^ It's short term thinking at best. The SCOPE (read George's user friendly breakdown) QOL changes, and the loose SL language is unreal to me in this profitable environment. PLEASE read the changes in our contract before you vote. Do not just read the highlights. I supported DALPA until I read the language, now I see through the bull crap.

No sales job? 4 page full color mailer about rates. No marching band though. I am sure the comprehensive concession pamphlet with color and graphs is in the mail, I just haven't received it yet.

Attachment 2194

Gents,

A humble opinion from an outsider.

I voted Yes on our AA/US JCBA simply because our MOU dictated that a No vote automatically sent our contract into cost neutral arbitration while locking us out huge pay increases, to be eventually averaged out to DL/UA pay rates (still well below each.) In other words, with a gun to our heads. The company won either way. I also voted Yes due to the fact that our membership and union leadership was completely at a loss as to what, or how, to fight if we voted it down.

The MOU completely removed any leverage our union had, and tied our hands. Win for Parker/Kirby. And so here we are.

You guys are not bound by an MOU that sends your contract into the hands of an arbitrator. You have tons of leverage. Your company is the best run and most profitable airline in the US and yet they are asking for concessions while using profit sharing to fund a small pay rate increase.

This would be an automatic No vote for me. Had our JCBA not been bound by cost neutral arbitration, I would also have voted No for ours as well. You guys can do way better. Hold the line!

73

"Destroy the next 30 years of your life?"

If a poor TA defines your happiness or lack thereof perhaps you need to reexamine what motivates you in life.

I hope this TA fails, and then we go back and fix what is lacking. That may take some time I admit.

But even if it passes I won't stake my own well being on it.

In fact if it passes two years from now half the no voters will hardly remember... which is how it always is (I still remember a captain swearing he was quitting ALPA due to the extreme concessions of now-revered C2K).

From Negotiators Notepad 15-04 June 16th

Implementation
The Company expects to be ready to fully implement the new sick leave items by the end of the year. In the interim, the look back periods for both the verification and medical release thresholds will look back no further than the beginning of the current sick leave year, June 1, 2015. That means any missed work days prior to June 1st will not count toward any thresholds. The 365-day metric will grow from that point as will the 1095-day metric. For example, if the new program is fully implemented on December 1, 2015 the initial look back will only be the number of missed work days since June 1, 2015. It will continue to grow until the 365-day point is reached and then will begin a rolling 365-day look back. The same will occur with the 1095-day metric.


The company originally wanted the 3 year look-back to be retroactive but they have already backed off on this.

So much for the myth of the "Last, best offer." Its called bargaining guys. We are allowed to hold out for more. They came to us for an early deal - they want something. We have leverage.

Scoop

Did you have the sense that your union was representing the AA pilots or AA management?

Show your math factoring in all the interrelation of work rule concessions. Also, factor in the cascading loss of bidding seniority rights for FOs.

There is no Yes vote in this thing...none.

Important to remember that we're not voting on Negotiators Notepads. We're voting on actual TA language. The claims made by the Negotiators Notepad ARE NOT in the TA language.

Carl

Worse yet, the right seat of an RJ.......

Ok so maybe i was a bit dramatic haha. Yes we all have a life outside of work. Id like to continue to be able to have that and this TA doesnt do anything to help. Its a step backwards for all of the reasons previously listed. If we cant hold out for a truly great contract in the greatest economic times in airline history, then what can we truly hope to ever achieve?

For sure they courted management as evidenced by the MOU terms, while at the same time reassuring us that we were going to come out of BK smelling the rosiest (also true.) The rest is history.

I was thinking hard labor as the right seat of a Maddog. Truly though Nestor and Donatelli need to spend the rest of their career in a cockpit. Of course I would hate to see Donatelli's CRM. I wonder if he screams at his FOs?

I am not necessarily applauding his logic, just his courage to state his contrarian conviction on here. And yes of course I want him (and everybody) to make an informed decision.

Again, I agree. But this is a 3 year deal. Barring a black swan landing, DAL will likely remain profitable for the duration of this agreement. And again, the only way this is a better deal is if DAL makes less than $6B each year going forward. Have you looked at AAL,UAL and SWA? I think we have a significant leg up on all of them, and it is a chance I am willing to take at this point. Especially since the true pay raise is insignificant when this conversion is taken out.

Now, all that being said it is not all about the money, but imho about how this has been presented. The pay increases themselves are fine as far as I am concerned, just stop spinning this as a good deal. It's dx/dy for all you math guys out there.

We will never get the work rules back, never..........

I'm old and if we turn this back I'll never see the money because RA won't come back to the table anytime soon, and that's just fine.

I'm not interested that OE pullout is industry standard, for example. This was supposed to be the best place to work in the industry. For all the south guys I've flown with that have heard me say what a better company this is to work for than NWA.......this officially me taking it back.

Some people actually do buy low. My gain on DAL and AAPL are both well north of 50%. Why is that so hard to believe?

OK, so let's say this gets voted down and we go back to the drawing board. What are you then willing to give up to not destroy the last 10 years of MY career?

gmab. Nothing?

How is it that a guy who works for another company knows this, but many of our own pilots don't? :confused:

What's our leverage?


Ask 767 FO if he, or she thinks we have leverage. Ask them how many times a day their phone rings. Look at the 767 ER open time (Especially NYC). Look at their daily trip coverage (especially NYC).) There are letters on their I've never seen before. Assignment with conflict? Wow.


This TA solves a staffing problem for the company. Big time.


If this TA doesn't pass, they won't drag their feet to get back to the table. They will be waiting there.

Here's something you all need to read before you vote Yes out of fear of the unknown. I posted it in the Harwood FUD thread too, but I want to make sure EVERYBODY reads it. It was written by a former DFW LEC rep:

I write this as a former ALPA volunteer whose job was partly to gauge the temperature of the pilots and partly to figure out what the company was going to do, and how to combat them. I have studied negotiating and know where we fouled up and how to fix this debacle. We have very real options. While there will be a few who vote yes based on narrow self-interests, most who vote yes will do so out of fear of what 'might' happen. I wrote the following to show why the company won't and can't react the way the MEC believes that they will. (Initially they will, but not for long.) Please spread it far and wide as I believe the arguments will carry more weight than a simple discussion of the numbers. Most negotiations are won based on emotion and not facts. We need to change that emotion from fear of the future to confidence in the future.

Why Richard is afraid of you

The MEC is trying to sell this TA largely based on the fear of what Richard Anderson will do if we turn the TA down. Yet the MEC is requesting police presence at the road shows, why? Because the MEC is afraid of you and so is Richard. We all know that the TA is a shameful piece of work that never should have seen the light of day. It trades profit sharing for too little pay (and changes the rules on how PS is calculated that could result in greatly reduced payouts), gives up big airplane flying to our JV partners, a ridiculous sick leave modification to a program that was the companies to begin with, and trading MD88’s for E190/195’s. They tell us Richard is a tough negotiator. He will drag us out years if we don’t cooperate, etc. Here is why that won’t happen.

First understand his position, its lousy! He has no leverage and most importantly, he has no alternatives. He doesn’t have another supplier, period. Also, his supply is going to be rapidly retiring. (By the way that will drive the overall cost of the contract down as the seniority list gets more junior. He can afford way more!) He can’t play nice or we will take him to the cleaners, so his only option is hardball. However, that is only going to anger us, so he needs a sweetener and a stick. The sweetener is the airplane orders and the stick is the threat of dragging it out. There are other arguments as well. However, all of those arguments are false.

Richard has painted himself into a corner. He has told Wall Street that he would have a deal with us by January. If you know anything about Wall Street, they expect promises to be kept, and react harshly when they are not. Some say Richard can’t be seen giving in to a Union. Well, Wall Street expected us to demand a deal worth twice what is in the TA. We are unlikely to achieve a deal that valuable now that the TA is out. This means that, even when we improve this deal, Richard will still be able to beat Wall Street’s expectations. Wall Street also wants the profit sharing gone or greatly reduced and they want it now. That is why Richard will have no choice but to come to the table with a better offer, sooner rather than later.

Also, remember that the company was going to spend $750 Million on dividends and stock buy-backs. They have upped that to $6 Billion during negotiations! Does that sound like they don’t have the money!

He also has a huge aircraft problem on his hands. The MD88’s are unable to be modified for Next Gen, and the FAA is insisting that ALL aircraft be capable by 2020. Richard has publicly stated several times that the 88’s will be gone by then. The problem is, neither Boeing nor Airbus have enough delivery slots available to replace them in time. He is left with E-190/195’s and the new C-series from Bombardier, which he has publicly stated that he likes. He can get the 190’s for cheap, because Boeing took them in trade from another customer and wants to get rid of them. Richard can’t pass up that deal. He also has Bombardier on the hook as they have sold very few and desperately need to sell some before they go bankrupt. It won’t hurt that a former NW executive just took over that division at Bombardier. The bottom line is he can’t delay the orders for long. Remember, all those jets will pay less than an 88, so a big savings to him and a pay cut for the more junior pilots. All those 757 pilots getting bumped to A321’s and 737-900’s are also getting a cut and saving him even more money.

He also needs a deal before FedEx, SWA, and UPS sign their contracts because this TA only brings us to their current rates. After they sign new contracts, they will be paid much more than we would be on this TA.

In short, he can’t afford to drag this out, he needs a deal now. If we vote this down, he will surely puff up his chest and try to play hardball for a while, because remember, his position stinks, and he needs to try and scare us into accepting minor improvements to this TA. Let him act tough. We will still have our great profit sharing and a better sick leave program. We can literally wait and do nothing and he will be forced to come to us before the end of the year. Or we can go on the offensive. We developed many tactics that we are legally allowed to carry out right now and they have a great effect on management. We proved that in ’06. For example; the company so hated ‘the Rat’ that they went to the city of Hapeville, and lobbied for an ordinance that stops it from being used. At least they think so; we already have a way around that ordinance. So whether we wait or go on offense,(Offense is the best option.) we will get a deal and soon.

I also want you to consider something that Richard has been saying to Wall Street for some time now. He says he doesn’t compare us to other airlines anymore because we are so far ahead of them and he expects to be for a long time. He says we are a transport index stock like Union pacific, FedEx, etc. So why is our union trying to compare us to other airlines? Also, weren’t we told that we were investing in Delta’s future when we were forced to give up almost half our pay and some gave all of their retirement while others had it frozen? So why, when that investment is finally paying off big, is he trying to take it from you? Because he doesn’t value you! He doesn’t appreciate that we are doing more for less. You are a cost, not a valued employee.

Richard is afraid that you will see through his posturing and he will have no choice but to greatly improve this TA. Judging by the way the CVG and ATL road shows went this week; the line pilots’ have figured it out. The choice is clear. Vote this TA down and vote it down overwhelmingly. Send Richard and our MEC a message they can’t ignore.

Mark Thompson

CVG M88A

Stole it from FB, why you should vote yes in one easy to understand picture:

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...psvrdkuqta.png

That is hilarious.

Just yellin. :D

Carl

What are we willing to give up is a question you ask a pilot group who hasn't already given everything over the past 15 years to faithfully help the company.

And yes this TA does nothing but make things harder, particularly now I have to worry about never getting a long term illness and handing over medical records to a company AME who will pull my medical? Why do we want that hanging over our heads. All so I can one day become an e190 CA? Or fly across the Atlantic in an a321?

You are asking me to give more than you. I don't have 30 years to recover like you do. See how this works? It's not all about you.

With Delta Scheduled to make record profits at or over $6 Billion profit sharing will make up for the lost pay raises (for at least the next 2 years and I guess it is possible we will be parked for a couple of years). While you think the pay raises are sufficient I believe the simple fact that DAL (based on the calculations of Analysts with a number of large brokerages) will actually come out ahead of the curve with the concessions on Profit Sharing and work rules will save DAL more than it pays out in our raises. That is my simple bottom line - we are not getting ANY of DALs improved profits.

Just an outsider, but it seems "one-poster-Woofer" is a "hit-and-run" shill going for the fence-sitters here.

I can only hope that he's one of a small minority that's in favor of this TA. I fear the people who will vote for anything that's gotten past the MEC, without bothering to understand what they're voting for.

Not at all. You'll make ok money and enjoy better QOL with the status quo. You don't have to give up a thing. If you're time is short, you benefit much more on the current PWA and most importantly if you get sick you're not going to find yourself jumping through hoops. If it's a couple percent in pay you're worried about giving up, take a look at the total compensation between now and 2018 and you'll realize it's smoke and mirrors when you factor in our current PS scheme and our automatic pay raises that are triggered anytime our fellow delta employees get a raise (they will), and UA and AA both have raises coming up.

That's funny. Maybe you haven't recognized...there are no fence sitters here, lol.

From FB
"Agreed. The question is just how much money we're talking about. Pay rates do not tell the whole story, until you consider what is being sold off to product those pay rates. Of the 8% the TA provides on July 1 of this year, I would estimate that roughly half is from selling scope, sick leave, and productivity. The 6% next year is almost totally from the PS swap, leaving us with about a 1% gain from vacation and CQ training pay increases. The 3% in the ensuing two years would be achieved anyway from 3 B. 4. if our fellow employees get as much as 3% in each of the next two years. IF UAL gets even a cost of living raise on time, even the 4% net we get this year will be achieved by C2012.
To be clear, the assumptions I'm using are that Delta's PTIX is at least $6B per year, and that it grants our fellow employees pay raises each year, as they have ever since emerging from BK.
Heiko Kallenbach"

Scott AKA ...NO VOTER!

You're asking him to take a 15.75% paycut because he'll enjoy better QOL in the current PWA? I'm sure he'll be reeling from the dramatic cuts of 23.G.5 and the travesty of getting verification after calling out over 14 days sick. Will the "increased" QOL make up for the TVM that extra 15.75% would have put the DC plan?

Since you've done the extensive research please enlighten us how much those "automatic" pay raises will be.

The math has been done to show this is no where near 15% better than status quo. It actually is less than status quo in 2018 given PS and triggered industry raises.

Im not asking him or you to take paycuts. Im asking you to send the TA back to get more. If you really believe its now or never then so be it. But there is a lot more still on the table, our dignity for one. Money and QOL for the other.

Show me your math

That's crap. You are asking me to fore go a significant pay increase. Period. It's well north of a "couple of percent", and sitting around for awhile to satisfy the bloodlust I am seeing ain't gonna help. The money is THE thing that is good about this TA. Other than that, notsomuch.

C2012, get comfortable we could be here awhile. The longer we go the more leverage we have as the moral deteriorates.

The tipping point will be when revenue is affected.

Unfortunately, there is no way to prove that management is smart enough to come back to the table until we give them a reason. They are willing to call our bluff because we always bluff. This time we have an excellent hand to play and they are bluffing us into a fold. Know when to hold'em.

C2012 is no home run but it keeps us in the game. Why hasn't their been a pay scale chart with the PS backed out? That's the only way to compare apples with apples. There is no huge pay raise. Its 8% for huge QOL givebacks. Pure and simple. 0/0/3/3 with C2012 vs 8/.26/3/3 and QOL loss with TA. We got .55% with 3.B.4. and most had no clue. That's more than double next years raise.

I'm on the fence. Right now a soft no however.

8/.26/3/3 with PS factored in. Yes Bender, you give up 8 percent now, and then the contractually triggered industry raises get you 3 percent (or more) depending on how UAL shakes out. But you keep at minimum 20 percent PS year over year (yes we all know unless another tragic event happens, in that case we're probably getting the company to beg for pay cuts anyway), but with profits the way theyre trending it could be 25 percent in PS.

Yes you get a raise in this TA. Im not arguing the money portion. Im more about the QOL givebacks, that do in fact have monetary impact.

I also don't want you to think that a no vote means its going to the NMB. You will get a counteroffer probably within 30 to 60 days in the form of either giving us some of our QOL provisions back, or sweetening the pot with higher pay. I hope we negotiate the former with the latter together, but that depends on how strong of a no vote we get. If they only have to change lets say 5 percent of the no votes to yes votes it will be a little tougher to bargain.