31 Dec 2015 would still trigger a raise. It's any time during a rolling 18-month period. Here's the cut and paste from 3.B.4.
/////////
If, during any consecutive rolling 18-month period, the Company grants an across-the- board increase in base pay rates to non-pilot U.S.-based workgroups covering 30% or more of its non-pilot U.S.-based workforce, then a review of pilot composite hourly rates will be triggered.
/////////

2 things to look at:
1. trigger to review pilot pay rates (other employee raises)
2. if triggered, how much do we raise pilot rates? (match lower of employee raises or UAL/AMR raise using contract formula).

Does anyone really think the company can sit back in record profits and not give any of its employee groups a raise? The company needs to give raises to the FA to entice them not to unionize; at least, that's what they've done in the past. (Whether the FA vote to unionize is up to them; I'm just saying management has typically sweetened things for non-union employees whenever it looked like it was getting close to unionize, and the FA union is gearing up for next spring).

3.B.4. was included in C2012 as a protection in case we didn't get a new contract on the amendable date for whatever reason. Compare 8/.26/3/3 with new scope, sick leave and work rule changes to 3/3/3/3 under current contract. Sure, 3/3/3/3 is not guaranteed, but it's very unlikely to go 0/0/0/0.

So they got restored from 7 to 5 weeks of vacation with a slower accrual rate then we have? Is this discussion about the chapter 11 filing?

Bender heres some PS math that was done by a fellow facebooker... see the picture for the table with the pay comparison...

"The PTIX for 2014 was $6.75B which resulted in a PS pool for all employees of $1.1B This level of PS netted each employee a payment of 16.58% of income. Under the terms of the TA, the PS pool would have been reduced by $350M due to the new trigger and another reduction of $46M due to the new definition of PTIX, resulting in a total PS payout of $704M. End result: each employee would have received 36% less in their payout - 10.61% of income instead of 16.58%.

Chart Assumptions:

- Pay Rates per TA, 12-year 737 Captain
- “Income” = (Pay Rate) * (1,000) — Per PWA Section 3.A.1, PS is based on annual income not including bonuses, profit sharing, shared rewards, or expenses.
- DL total annual payroll unchanged
- All PS payouts based on 2014 PTIX***

***Note: Both Richard Anderson and Ed Bastian have publicly stated they expect DL profits to be as good as or better than 2014 in years 2015 and beyond, hence assumption is not unrealistic.

Conclusion: The proposed changes to Profit Sharing are a bad deal
for all Delta pilots. A really bad deal."

I dunno, I was just spitballing. Maybe the first three weeks pay 5/day and the next 3 only pay 4 or something like that. Get more up front so to speak.

Exceeeeept, wouldn't you have to use current rates for the 737 pilot under the current contract? You cannot use TA payrates if we turn this down. Nice work, but please resubmit.

Great information, thanks. I have been emailing my reps quite a bit about the lack of information being given out on this topic.

Your conclusion relies on three major tenets: First, you take what Richard Anderson says as the gospel. Second, you take what Ed Bastain says as the gospel. Third, that Delta will remain profitable for the next three years. Really? You believe all three? Awesome. I have some great Florida property that I would like you to invest in. No , you don't have to look at it. Just trust me.

You do realize that if RA and Sleepy Ed lie about stuff like that, the SEC will file felony charges against them, right?

Just trust you? Are you on the MEC roadshow?

Tenets, they're different from tenants, but only slightly.

Heiko would disagree with your contention too. But, don't let that get in the way of your SEC lawsuit against the Delta management head shed.

Let us know how much rent you get for your tenants there Einstein.

Carl

If RA and Ed lied about being able to forsee the future the SEC would sue them? Brilliant. RA and Ed will ALWAYS say what the shareholders and potential shareholders want to hear.

They can't predict the next 9/11, potential Trainer factory disaster, or plane crash or any thousands of other disasters which could send our stock price and profits plunging. On the other hand, you think the future is roses and sunshine if we vote no. You're right. I should listen to you. Because if we show an awful profit, you'll cover me for it, right?!

Dude, I was being facetious. It's a form of humor. If the poster said he trusts RA an EB, why, he should trust me too. Get it? Ha ha. You are right about the tenets. Don't say I never throw you a bone.

Having said that, the architect of C2K -the gold standard- told me he'd take this deal in a heartbeat. So F$#k what Heiko said.

You've swayed me. Wow, glad we have brilliant trolls under the bridge. You do know the meaning of facetious I'm assuming? If not, it means full of $hit. Just like this TA.

Thank you for running for the negotiating committee. I appreciate it. Sorry you weren't chosen. So you propose...

I propose no.

Hope you have a backup healthcare plan.

No doubt he's a troll, but look at how much reaction to this thread that he started with his very first post on APC. A post explaining why he's voting YES.

One of the MEC administration's strategies is to get folks to punch themselves out. Think rope-a-dope in Ali/Foreman. We need to be quicker to move on once the trolls become clear.

Looking forward to Woofer chiding me because I just can't debate his brilliance. :roll eyes:

Carl

I believe someone already suggested this but if that be the case, why not allow the membership to vote on C2K with it's pay rates and work rules? Surely if it cost the company less than POS15 as you are suggesting, the company would be more than happy to oblige?!

Just a quick reminder, Woofer is a troll. His purpose here is to get your internet energies focused on something other than the MEC administration and their contemptible behavior.

Let's let the trolls just talk amongst themselves here. After all, they built the thread.

Carl

Those tenants might be the ones paying rent on his Florida property...if so, it makes the property more valuable.

I propose we get parked by the NMB for a few years and continue cashing our Profit Sharing checks and say...

http://replygif.net/i/691.gif

Yes. It's a part of the massive plan. The contemptible tenant plan. Still voting Yes. I told you why. You disagree? Then Vote NO! (See post #1 for guidance.)

W......no one can predict the next mr toads wild ride for the airline industry.

It is not, never has been, and never will be a stable industry. The fly in your pay rate perspective is apparently you have a belief pay rates are not impacted by the same disasters that would evaporate PS.

Have you been watching a different movie than the rest of us the last 30 years?

The very uncertainty and instability you cite is precisely the reason you should get as much as you can as early as you can. 20+% next feb is a far, far more certain reality than pay rates 3+ years in the future.

This TA is cost positive for the company. Our PS give back funds the first two raises under this TA; the company's savings equals 14.35% of our pay, which funds the first two raises. 13.B.4. funds the remaining 3% raises since it's something we already have. Immediate scope compliance with international JV...saves millions. LCA pull back saves millions. Sick leave...I don't know. Plans for E190 at rates 84% of similar ASM performing B717...saves how much?

Total savings to company under TA from PS is $350M assuming $6B PTIX. Our share is 40% of that or $140M which equals 5.74%. Well, the whole enchilada is 14.35% of our pay. 8% on July 1st and 6% on Jan 1st, which the pro-TA group will remind you is 14.58% with compounding.

There is a little TVM since the company is paying us upfront and won't realize the profit until 2016, and the company's money is at risk. However, everyone is predicting the profits to continue rolling in, particularly with this TA.

Regardless, great job by management in getting the pilots to fund their raises with PS from the other employee groups as well.

Another friendly reminder: This thread was started by a troll with the hope of you wasting your energy here. Let it fall to last place.

Carl

funny. This entire website is an energy vampire.

That's all too true.

Hi Bender, how about this presentation of our industry pay raises and PS under the current contract? Not my work but I found it to be rather matter of fact. Your thoughts?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6466xvw0m...4a4mCY0ba?dl=0

I agree. Some are obsessed with my original post because it provides a different point of view. I didn't mean for them to be drawn into it like one of those spinning pinwheel vortex things. Yet here we are, 15 pages later....

But having said that, what are your better ideas? I asked earlier, no one has wanted to answer. Profit sharing intact, same raise? Or 20% raise, ps intact, status quo on sick and LCA? Ideas? Or just whining with numbers to back the whining up? Seriously, what do you want to extract -exactly- if this is voted down?

On behalf of myself and many of the female pilots at Delta, we are solid no on this TA. It's not even 1/4 of what it should have been. Big let down. Shame on you Donatelli and those selling this thing!

The general consensus is that most pilots would live with, but not necessarily be thrilled with, the pay raise IF the PS scheme was kept as is, as well as everything else. Essentially a contract extension with pay raises. There is no reason to give any work rules or scope away when the company is already the most profitable it has ever been. Too much has been given over the past 15 years and the company promised restoration when times were better. We have to stop feeling like we owe something. I would be willing to consider some givebacks if our givebacks were somehow tied to executive givebacks. But cutting our PS to fund executive bonuses when they've doubled their pay in the past few years? Which group here do you see abusing their relationship?

Now with that being said, what we would have loved to see is min calendar day, extra week of vacation, real training and vacation pay at 5:15 or more, etc

+1



How many people on this thread are expressing that they will vote yes. This is not a discussion, it's a lecture.

But, it gives the impression there are a lot of people are on here that are going to vote yes.


There are not.

We should let this one fall down the list....

Another friendly reminder, along with NewK: This thread was started by a troll with the hope of you wasting your energy here. Let it fall to last place.

Carl

I still haven't digested the whole thing. As a matter of fact, I find it interesting that so many could look at it for 2 days (I am being generous) and make their unequivocal decision. I still need more information.

Anyone else figure out that under the current contract that if you go over 100 hours of sick leave not only will the company ask you to verify but they can also ask for a medical release. Under the new TA the medical release doesn't happen until 24 missed work days. The current contract doesn't have any language on keeping records, good or bad.

Hey Carl! Ain't your thread!

I've since changed my mind on the TA. After hearing about the economic headwinds we are facing I'm worried about Delta's financial future. I am terribly afraid that this TA could end up actually costing the company money depending on what happens with future profits. I can't in good conscience vote for anything that could hurt Delta. I was originally a no vote because it's a concessionary POS in a time of record profits. Now I'm VOTING NO to protect Delta from itself.

I would also like to start a movement to disband the union all together and just let management dictate pay and work rules as they see fit. At least this way we get to keep our dues that are being used to pay company mouth pieces to sell us this historic contract. Would it be possible to see the pay charts if we get to keep our dues?

Why all the fuss about the medical records. If you don't have anything to hide then why should you be worried. Come to think of it, we should apply the same logic to all aspects of our lives. Let's get rid of our constitutional protections because those are only there to protect the guilty SOBs that hide behind them.

Oh and seniority. This seniority thing is crazy. Everyone is mad because the new LCA rules would violate seniority. Who cares if you've been at the Delta 25 years longer than me. I think we should all have management reviews twice a year that dictate our standing in the company. If my reviews are in the top tier I could be a wide body capt in no time.

What's scary Line, I flew with a few pilots that were worried that the 2012 contract was going to cost the company too much money!!!

First, let's be clear, it's not a raise.

Profit sharing is intact...today.

Extract? The company came to us. They are the ones doing the extracting here...troll.

Like!

So, ah, hey, I'm a pilot...how do you like me so far.:D

but you get to voluntarily verify your sick leave anytime you want under the current PWA, so you can have 100 hours of unverified sick at any time. BIG difference, especially when you have a major illness upfront, but a slight headcold later on that they wont accept verification for.