RA on Dueling PS Plans and E-190's
 

Just listening to the webcast now. Jamie Baker asked about pilot negotiations, whether there would be a problem having different PS schemes for us and the other employees, and whether the E-190's are still up for grab.

To paraphrase,
1) They don't comment on negotiations. They "respect the relationship".
2) They are "fine" running two different PS plans. Other employees responded very well to 14.5% pay increases, and will still have most lucrative PS plan in industry.
3) No idea whether the E190's are still available. The E190 agreements were terminated, and all deposits returned to Delta. If you want to know about the aircraft, ask Boeing.

[QUOTE=Sink r8;

3) No idea whether the E190's are still available. The E190 agreements were terminated, and all deposits returned to Delta. If you want to know about the aircraft, ask Boeing.[/QUOTE]


Who is willing to fly the 190 at the last offered pay rate??

Profit sharing is a huge issue, that's why we had a quick TA. The other is productivity. Sick leave in line with our competitors is the goal, abuse is the red herring.

Considering it was to pay about what the 717 pays now, I guess you can take a look at the 717 in category lists and have a pretty good idea. Pretty junior in New York, circa 2008 hires, I guess.

You could do this as an academic exercise, of course, since we don't have to worry about it.

If "sick leave in line with our competitors is the goal" then that would imply that current sick leave use is in fact NOT in line with our competitors. Therefore abuse cannot be a "red herring" and is in fact a statistical outlier compared to other carriers.

Am I missing something? (I am not necessarily stating that sick leave abuse is rampant and a huge problem, only highlighting your own apparent doublespeak; perhaps I read too much into your statement).

p.s. Of course it could also be argued that we are the only carrier where pilots don't fly sick because we have no need to try to hoard unused sick time.

I dunno. Do you think DAL could find captains for the 190 at the current contractual rate of $139/hr?

(Believe it or not, I don't think the company wants those rates to be that low...they just want them to be less than the 717).

The problem with our sick leave is that delta continues to insist on a use it or lose it system. They have created the so called abuse. None of our peer airlines have this system. Go figure that our usage is higher...

We got the most generous sick abuse policy ever in the world and its even better if you are in a liberal state. They say.


If you try to use it you are a sick abuser. They say.

It's like getting to go to a churrascaria in Brazil for $10, being told it's the greatest meal you will ever have with the best food you'll ever eat in a buffet and as you go to get some...

SIT DOWN FAT ASS!




:D

And UAL , 2-3 sick calls (esp long haul) negates every hour you build that year. Thrown in a surgery or life event and your struggling to get to LTD. Love your guy's system.

Don't forget Americans "Sick if needed Policy" for reserve Pilots which further invalidates any comparison between our sick use numbers.

They can call in sick on reserve and if they were not going to be called out for a trip - zero sick leave used, nada, zilch, nothing. So how can we accurately compare our reserve Pilot sick use to them.

Ive got an idea - give us "Sick if needed" and then we can compare our numbers. :)


Scoop

And that's the problem. The pay table says E190/195 and you have established a rate for an airplane that could replace 88s, 319s, 737s and it pays less than all.

I agree, I don't think the company wants the rates that low at mainline.

I would estimate there are tens of thousands of pilots willing to fly the 190 for the pay rates that Delta offered. They are called new hires.

Not to bw obtuse, but why not?

Because delta doesn't want relative new hires in the left seat flying with new hires in the right seat. Even though they did it with delta express, it required, quite likely, the most stringent standardization program Delta has ever had. So, to be blunt, delta would like their captains to have more time on property...even though some of the new hires have a bunch of capt time in the e-jet.

Jmo.

Watch out. I got some serious incoming for suggesting that a few months ago. I think I tied it to insurance.


Get ready to duck! :D

You are right they were just flying the same airplane with a few less rows of seats behind them. They are totally incapable of flying Delta passengers safely. :eek:

Um... never mind. :rolleyes:

If they bring their old airplanes with them it would be one big fleet back under the mainline banner. Take back scope, rates would be secondary for everyone on property right now. :cool:

Exactly. I had a long talk with the ATL Intl CP about sick leave. He said the company wants to match the rest of the industry, but HE SAID the rest of the industry "Incentivizes sick leave", as in, they bank it and/or pay out unused sick leave at the end of the year.

So any 'industry average' comparison to our 'use it or lose it' is apples to oranges. His words, not mine. I just agreed with him. He was frustrated because he's supposed to be the Sick Leave Police, when in fact, nobody was 'abusing' it, they were just using it.

It's a benefit in our contract, just like vacation.

Do you use all your vacation? Are you a Vacation Abuser?

Whatever.

It has nothing to do with previous experience or anything lacking. Not all new hires are created equally. Plus it's not my decision anyway.

I have always, always been a scope recapture guy. I want delta pilots to fly everything under the delta brand.

If some weasel wants to make it some mil vs civ thing or north vs south or green vs blue, that's on him.

For those of you who were not here when Delta started "Express" in 1996, we had guys on furlough from 1993, who were recalled to CAPTAIN on the 737 Express in 1996.

It was only the bottom 3 Captains on Express, but still, you had 3 guys who had NEVER flown as a Delta copilot, (they were 727/L10-11 engineers when furloughed) who were recalled to Express 737 Captain in MCO.

Pair that up with a new hire, things can get pretty funny, pretty fast!:D

The point I was making a few months ago had nothing to do with pilots ability, or previous experience and none should take it that way. It had everything to do with money.

Maybe it's insurance. Maybe it's that a lot of mid level FO's are making more than most captains. But, the TA had Deltas wishes all over it.

NewK,

No one ever got on your case. They don't have the stones.

Anyway, I tend to agree with FTB about the 190. It's the md88 replacement at a lower pay rate ... Which is already lower than smaller airframes.:confused:

Why do we never hear this type of argument from our union? Sometimes it is difficult to tell which side our union is representing.

I think you guys are kidding yourselves that management doesnt want ______ pay rate too low.

They want their costs as low as possible. Additionally, there have been lots and lots of very inexperienced captains flying with very inexperienced FOs hauling a good chunk of Delta passengers (DL Connection).

If you could reclaim E170/175 76 seaters by making them a common fleet with the E190 and bringing them to mainline would that be worth it?

If they operated the aircraft at DCI I think they would be able to manage the airplane. If the flying is recaptured the rates could be improved over time. The synergies of a single fleet would offset the costs.

Republic already can't maintain their flying. Now might be the right time.

Delta Sues Republic Airways Over Canceled Flights - WSJ

...without hats!

So what is management going to give up in return for us fixing their problems by bringing 175s to mainline?

And AA only recently left "legacy" work rules behind; historically reserves weren't flying every day as they do at DAL.

I have to throw it in, sorry-- thanks C12 for the ALV+15 (with bonus 117 features).

^^^^DALPA Strategic Planning^^^^^

Looking backward to see what's ahead. Thanks Harwood and Hanson.

Then why did mgmt agree to raise the 190 12 yr capt rate over $60 / hr from what is in our contract today?

Not that I completely disagree about company concerns but how exactly is a new hire with several hundred or thousand hours of 121 PIC time any worse off in a Delta maintained 717 or E190 vs the E175 he just stepped out of for a connection carrier? On the contrary he is probably a lot quicker and more savvy moving through the various manuals and regulations than your average long term international FO finally crossing that bridge for the first time in 12-18 years.

I hate to break it to you but Compass' training program was derived from NWA operating procedures, type and check rides were not handed out like candy-- "You'll get that on the line," was not a mantra there. I hear Skywest and Eagle are similar.

Because they thought they could get away within it. I should have been raised $90+ to include the 195.

Ditto

Most have deadheaded on the 175 and didn't refuse to climb aboard. The 175 captain would definitely be more at home in that fleet type than any one at Delta. Bring the whole fleet to mainline.

I'm assuming that's a rhetorical, but don't forget that when framing such a question, you have to specify "real-world", or "internet-based". On the internet, everyone wants the RJ's brought up to mainline, but no one flies them at $200/hr in a couple of years. In the real world, everyone also want the RJ flying brought in, and besides, they fly the 717 (a larger airplane) now, without any unfilled bids, at $195/hr.

It's complicated.

I'm guessing because it brings it more in line with our contractual rates on other aircraft and they thought it would sweeten the deal sufficiently to pass the agreement. They knew it would be a small fleet anyways, so they didn't mind eating the jump in pay so they could get the: sick leave policy they wanted, OE trip drop decimation, and give backs on PSing.

No, it's simple.

You are trying to gloss over and minimize NA15's concessions...all in an effort keep Moak's "yes" men in office in C44.

It isn't an rj and it isn't "being brought" to mainline.

It was already ours. It was a jet that Dalpa hadn't yet given up to the regionals.

Besides, the 110 seat 717 is far more of a regional jet then the 98 seat E190 with double the range.

More like 500nm longer range. Still substantial but not double.

I always assumed that the Embraer Regional Jets are Regional Jets. And I also assumed an aircraft that isn't at the mainline, and suddenly is, was "brought in".

But yes, we do have a rate for it. A crappy rate. And no actual airframes.

But semantically, we're awesome.