Checklists at Delta
 

Just curious about the SOP at Delta.

Do you guys push without final weight manifests and load your perf data while taxiing?

And how long is your checklist while taxiiing- ie a taxi or before takeoff check?

At UAL we are loading up our F/O's with so much, they are often heads down for most of the taxi time to the runway.

Yes but on most fleets the perf autoloads so you are really verifying.

There is relatively short taxi checklist which goes over perf data and control checks.

There is Before Takeoff checklist that confirms what is going to happen right after takeoff, that you are TO from the right location, and that the cabin is ready.

It is not good to have one person heads down while taxing. Not good at all. In fact the other day saw someone cut off a 737 to follow an e190 when they had been told to follow the 737. What was the response, "I thought that (e190) was a 737?"

Yup, ask any MD88/90 FO, this is a problem waiting to happen. I have written a few ASRs about the task saturation to no avail.

we are already empowered to mitigate this threat. TEM requires we develop and employ strategies to create time when task saturation develops.

no one is going to be there to pat you on the back-pack for the 'effort' after you have a fender bender, or rwy incursion, or take off with only one engine running.....

Most of the time, the WDR shows up before push. The simple solution if it comes late is to just stop the taxi while head down to load and cross check the data.

If one becomes task saturated on taxi out, one needs to let that be known so the operation can be slowed or halted until one is caught up. How's that for political correctness? ;)

Denny

I think DAL has task saturated its crews during the taxi out (hey it works in the sim though) and its not right to delay other airlines who possess more streamlined procedures just so we can get things done. If there is a place to pull over then fine, but we as a group need to push back on this to get it changed. I try my best to go heads up when the left side goes heads down but its getting harder to do all the time. Just a matter of time until we bend some metal.

I am a new FO on the 73 and have had mixed experiences. Usually we do our perf during or right after push before we tax but about 20% of the time the perf comes later and we have to do it during taxi. Usually if I'm heads down its because I'm looking at the taxi diagram trying to make heads or tails of the taxi instructions. I had one experience coming out of SLC where we got late perf, had to switch runways, requested new perf, and the new numbers created the need for a bleeds off takeoff. There were so many things we had to change or brief that I spoke up and asked the Captain if we could pull over and sort it out. That sort of broke the chain, we parked for 3 minutes on the deice pad with ground's permission and got straightened out.

Bottom line IMO, is if the FO is feeling the pinch, he has to speak up and let the other guy know. No awards for a 3 minute earlier takeoff but they'll come after you for the mistake.

I keep hearing we are trying to reduce taxi times, well sorry, it ain't happening. Years ago programming was done at the gate so you were ready to go when the tug was clear. Now we are told one engine and be ready to move the aircraft at disconnect to lower ramp congestion. Technique, I don't tune up tower until I'm ready. If the CA does then we usually do a 180 on to the parallel taxiway or cross the runway to finish.

Captains need to set a pace that works for the crew. If they are flying with a slower first officer it doesn't speed things up to rush them. There are times to be heads down such as when you are creeping on the last taxi wayleading to the runway. Pulling off at the end is complicated since ATC plans for you to be ready. If things are unusual and you need more time ask to be sidelined earlier. Especially when you are destined to a busy airport early communication keeps the operation smooth. Lots of times I watch crews behave as if the airport is theirs personally and they are the most important thing out there. I for one definatley think that once you start the push your tasks should be streamlined so "Aviate" stays the primary concern and you follow the right aircraft and taxi in the right piece of pavement.

To the Ops question, on the 717 our checklist is very short compared to the 88's. That thing is yuge. And we have auto upload which not only helps but really comes in handy when the runway is changed on you.

On the 717 we seem to get the taxi check done in about 20 seconds or so. You're inevitably both going to memorize every checklist on a plane you fly 40-60 legs per month on month after month after month af... it usually is not much more than 20 seconds. Very minimal heads down. Engine start on a FADEC allows more heads up (but I'm not saying you can ignore the start, that could bite you pretty hard). The before takeoff checklist is pretty simple and quick and comes at a time with minimal risks as compared to the taxi checklist.

Basically, automation just really helps.

Which probably explains how we were cut off by an 88 taxing out the other day, we were going into ramp 4 and the guy was told to give way, he responded, and went on anyways. We had to stop. We were both 88 guys so we get it. After you do enough ORD flights you start to not trust ground ops anyways.

And you guys don't even have pay sheets...hah!

The best part of any taxi out, or arrival for that matter is the runway guessing game. It has become like a game show, either bells and confetti ding... ding...ding we have a winner! Or waa...waa...waa buzzzzzzer, thanks for playing and better luck next time.

ACARS ding on taxi out triggers the question, "well captain do you want me to type or taxi?" While I'm thinking... or are you going to try to do both while I decide how far to let you get off centerline before I say something. :confused:

My biggest grief is pushing out of ATL and then taxing for 9L M2 intersection. Not to start a North vs South battle but North guys always spin both right away. South Captains have this personal goal to get to M2 with 3 minutes on the engines. Which sounds great for fuel saving but overloads the FO. Gotta spin the engine at the last moment possible, usually when your taxiing eastbound and about to pull a 180 onto Mike. Not the best time to be both heads up and down. PA to the kiddos, wait for the FA to call back, while communicating with ground, running the Delay afterstart, safety briefing for Takeoff runway, BTO check.... all in less than three minutes.

I take my sweet time to make sure it's all done correctly, but I can see a new FO being rushed and mistakes made.

I always start 2 & try and get the wdr done before we taxi as long as we're not blocking an alley or someone else on the ramp. I'm a new Ca flying with 90% new FO's. Fuel savings is the last thing on my radar. Not bending sheet metal is the first priority.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that.

Best info ever, old #1 Capt. said, 'Fly it like it was a Bonanza with your family on board." The Co. turns blue, chokes, holds their breath....... Squiddle happens.

Their backpacks are ON. Tight. Really tight. And they love it. They're saving money all over the place. For PS. PS that they want to get rid of for small raises.

They're just very cheap people who are being cheap on behalf of the company and still think fuel is $4/gal and we're losing billions every quarter. You'll see it on every fleet and pilots from both seats, it's not just a Captain thing at all. I'm sure you'll see it in ATL more than anywhere else but I was out west and deadheading on the same day with two different LAX 717 crews, really FOs, and they would not start the APU until push time. Miserable. So it's all over the place.

They're just cheap people. I'm not cheap. Air conditioning is a safety issue and comes complimentary with the price of the ticket.

Actually got asked in SLC why I was running the APU on a 35 min turn. I said you never hooked up the air. They were so confused, why does that mean you wouldn't shut down the APU?

It's a mindset that puts fuel savings > safety/passenger comfort/JD Power Surveys. And I think the company has been very clear that is not to be the case.

Maybe a metallurgist will chime in. I was told a long time ago by an Aero Engineer that taxiing out on one engine is false economy. A heavy airplane, high power settings to get moving, and a cold engine means more fuel consumption, more engine wear, and dollars out the window.... Therefore, I'm SAVING Delta money by starting em both!:D

Sounds like how if you fly faster you land with more fuel then they planned with you flying slower. Don't even bother pointing it out, it won't change anything. :cool:

But I will say I once read about a Citation X owner who realized how much money he could save flying the net slower than its M.92 cruise speed. Until he added in the power by the hour maintenance program and even with high fuel expenses (per gallon back then) it made more sense to go max power everywhere. So there is always more to the equation.

You've got me intrigued. I'd like to know more about whether it's better to two engine taxi.

When I was a new hire 727 Engineer, we typically taxied on the center engine only. JUST before takeoff, and I mean at Number 2, the Captain would say, "Spin the others..." :eek:

As an engineer, you had a lot of stuff to get done, you had to parallel the 3 generators manually and get them on line, check the hydraulic systems (all 3) make sure the fuel valves were right, Packs On, Gasper On, APU off, run a checklist and the F/O still had to set the flaps for T/O....all in about a minute or two.

There were more than a few takeoffs where I was still trying to get the generators on line as we were rolling down the runway. :rolleyes:

Then there was a spate of middle engine failures (#2). Some said it was because we used that engine more than 1 and 3, as we always taxied on number 2, and waited to start 1+3.

Then, in 1987, a Delta 727 tried to take off from DFW with the flaps up... guess why?

Yeah.

Another rushed a last minute, two engine start, and never got all the stuff done.

That's about when CRM training started, due to that and a few other accidents at the time. We had to learn to say WAIT A MINUTE! to the Captains who would rush us at the last minute.

You guys all know we get paid 'by the minute' right?

I'm in no hurry to be the first guy to the accident scene. If you need/want to slow it down, just say something to the Captain, and tell him, "Hey, we're on the clock, we're getting paid, an extra 3 minutes will buy us the first round!":D

Single engine taxi has always been a dubious practice. Save a little fuel and pour the coals on a cold engine. Delta owns a refinery, we make jet fuel.

This is an awesome thread! We could use a little less teeth gnashing and much more hanger flying.

And not just on takeoff. Back when we started taxiing 757's on one engine, in and out, there was one in LGA that was taxiing into the gate using only the left engine.

As he got close to the gate, but not quite there yet...he had to push the power up on the L engine to get those last 3 feet and...

WHOMPF!

Sucked in the yellow AC hose laying on the ramp by the jetway and trashed the engine! :eek::eek:

I was sitting reserve in BOS and was called out to DH to LGA, to fly that 757 a couple days later, with the new L engine, back to ATL.

The mechanic in LGA told me it cost about $10 Million for the engine.

But think of all the fuel they saved taxiing in on one engine for 5 minutes! :rolleyes:

Thanks all for the great responses. It is as I expected- unfortunately.
I am wrestling with the new norm.
At CAL, prior to the merger, we had the numbers always loaded before push, there was no taxi check, and the b4 takeoff check was 3 items. Our on time rate was top notch- as evidenced by the bonuses paid nearly monthly. There were 3 pieces of paper from the printer. After the merger we were suddenly unable to get off the gate on time waiting on final weights and perf- so it got pushed onto the taxi way along with a mile long (not taxi) take off check and about 8print outs that have nothing to do with a safe departure.

We have some really great fo's who are very (maybe too) motivated to get off on time-inspite of briefing to keep the pace slow and comfortable.

As Captain I am expected to respond and verify the Fmc and MCP is properly set*while*taxiing, but not to verify the flap setting or trim :(

I see some desk pilot trying to impress his bean counter boss fingerprints all over this.

Too bad the union is more concerned with the quality of the crew meal utensils than safety on this. They are silent.

Being a public forum I will hold short here..,

Back when DAL was hiring like topsy, 727 guys were farmed out for training, the quality of training was not the best. (Not the new troops fault.) Routinely pulled off to let him catch up. Alive today to talk about it.

Maybe it has something to do with accounting? Someone blows a motor and the engine replacement can be accounted for as a one-time special expense (even though it is happening more often). But the fuel savings they can show as an improvement in operating margin - which investors love and i'm sure mgmt gets bonuses for. Just a thought - I'm no accountant.

I agree with all of the above, we get a lot of paper printing out on the taxi out and one of the two pilots (the F/O usually) has to go head's down to either enter or verify everything in the FMS, then he's got a rather long taxi and T/O checklist to run, and part of that check is the Captain has to verify everything in the FMS and on the paper print out, so he's got to go head's down too. A simple departure runway change is a mess, because now both have to do it all over again, while running the 'Runway Change Checklist'.

I was not at all in favor of doing all this data loading while taxiing, but as you said, some cubicle pilot/bean counter came up with it as a way to help our On Time Departure numbers go up.

Our FOQUA data has shown there have been guys trying to take off with the flaps up, or in the wrong position, and I believe it is mostly due to this new procedure of loading the data while taxiing.

As part of my departure brief at the gate (WARTS for the Delta guys) I always include the 'Threat' of being distracted by all the crap coming off the printer at the last minute, and going heads down to load it and verify it.

I say, "If we get a runway change, or new AWABS, we will pull over and set the parking brake while we sort it all out.".

We are getting paid by the minute, I'm in no hurry to try to take off and make the next Safety Bulletin headlines.

IMO you just have to sort the chaff from the real threats. Nobody ever lost their job for starting a 2nd engine early or pulling off to the side because they didn't feel like they were ready to go. I'm not jaded into a screw-the-company at all costs mentality; however, they talk out of both sides of their mouths or are penny-wise and pound-foolish on so many issues I find it necessary to do what is important to defend my livelihood.

I find that when I am rushed it is rarely if ever as a result of something we did as a crew. Most of the time it is an external factor such as WX or ATC and to a lesser extent because of something internal to DAL such as ground crews, unrealistic scheduling, or incorrect/missing paperwork. I don't get paid to rush and fix other people's mistakes. None of them will lose their ticket if I bend metal or violate a clearance trying to fix their errors. I just don't see the benefit in rushing to cover somebody else's mistakes.

If I was Captain again, and taxi lines were such that I think we could be OFF in 5-10 min, and I was flying with clone me in the right seat, I'd do it this way:

Push, awesome clone me starts left engine, I enter the data, they disconnect, they waive, we do the after start and go. As soon as the coast is clear start the right engine. Then do taxi checklist then before and go. Unless I want to do something else. If the numbers come late, awesome clone me taxis and I enter.

That said, real world me, realizes you will have a better FO if you keep them in their comfort zone and routine. Do that and less mistakes will be made. There may be a better way to do things, like my way, but it might not be the cultural norm the FO is used to and the FO has their show to run too.

So, bucking that norm isn't going to do the FO and thus me any favors. So I'd ask the FO, how do you like to do things? Get a feel, game plan from there, call audibles from there.

And just because atc clears you or you see no traffic and a wide open chance to go, you don't have to go. Some people have get there itis despite being leg 3 of day 2 of 4 days. Relax.

And I want to emphasize something. In my time on the 717, a vast majority of captains have been really great about this stuff and the taxi out checklists and all that stuff has gone very well.

And the ER guys were really good.

And the... nevermind.

+1

Within the last year or so, a bean counter came up with the "great" idea that the 320 can save lots of fuel if we land flaps 3 instead of flaps full.

I won't go into the myrad of problems that arise with this but I will say this....If I'm ever in front of a jury having to explain myself, I'd rather explain why I landed flaps full than why I didn't land flaps full.

Exactly, and the 50 lbs of fuel you save can be lost in a millisecond by a fuel hedge gone bad. Or waiting for the ground crew taking their time parking the aircraft.

Actually, someone should do the math on the fuel hedging loss and take it down to the second. Funny number to remember.

FTB, you're good at that kind of stuff, just the person to do that. Waiting patiently on the supporting graphs, charts, and PPT:D

Really? Do you use max autobrakes every time?

Would I do a flaps 3 (or on my plane 25) into SNA? Hell no. But on a clear night landing in MCO or RSW, with a long runway, yes.

Don't let the company pressure you into doing something stupid. On the other hand don't let an unreasonable fear of an inquisition prevent you from saving money for the company when it is safe and appropriate.

The normal overhead panel is a lights out configuration. Landing flaps 3 requires selecting the Landing flap 3 PB on the overhead. Now there is light on up there because we are doing something non standard.

Flaps 3 has not been a "normal" landing configuration in the 20 plus years we've been flying the bus. Putting out a bulliten does not make it so. Bad idea just to save 50lbs of gas.

Wait till they see the tire change increase, that little gem will quietly disappear into aviation history.