How do you reengage when your leadership has said they can't do any better? New NC and new MEC chairman and soon to be new C44 reps. Now we are able to reengage. If the leadership hadn't failed us so badly, we would have reengaged earlier. If C44 had held the recall election on a date that could be attended we would be 2 months ahead.

Jim,

I also like what you are doing with the P2P but your above statement is incorrect - you are off by a year. If the TA had passed our 2016 PS would all be under the 6.0B 20% trigger. Yes, the check actually comes in 2017 but the 6% 2016 pay-rate increase would effectively be totally cancelled by the PS reduction.

Thanks for your efforts and keep up the great work on the P2P! :)

Scoop

Scoop,

I will recheck, (as IF it matters), but I am almost certain, that the PS changes would not have gone into effect until the 2017 calculations for a 2018 payout; hence 2016 "pay" would have been the same.

In any case, that SHIP has sailed, and there really is no benefit in the debate about that rejected TA.

You're thinking of the .05 of per diem. :D

From Contrails 19 dated June 9, 2015

Profit Sharing:

• 20% trigger modified from $2.5B to $6.0B for profit sharing distribution for year 2016 and onward (paid on 2/15/2017)
• 5.74% of variable compensation converted to fixed compensation in the form of hourly pay rates, assuming the Company achieves PTIX of $6.0+ billion every year
o This impact is reduced if PTIX is less than $6 billion
• No cap on profit sharing (no change)
• Change in PTIX definition:
o Treat management compensation same as other employees compensation
o Remove stock volatility from profit sharing calculation by removing gains/losses on equity securities
• Changes would not become effective until 2017 profit sharing payout
• Base pay rates increase 17.9% prior to first profit sharing payout under the new profit sharing formula

Still no answers Falcon7. http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/de...ml#post2048407

As a couple guys posted, it is certainly incorrect.

The NA15 ship has sailed, thank goodness, but the P2P ship has not.

I think you highlight the reason P2P can never be successful: people make mistakes and misinterpret. It can be honest or nefarious. But bad info is bad info.

This is not a knock on Jim, who is working diligently and with great integrity.

However, his gaffe is noteworthy.

P2P is obsolete. It used to work (or at least be justifiable) because the pilot group was largely uninformed and isolated from the discussion and each other.

Social media and the MD11 have changed all that forever.

The best way to spend P2P dollars is to disband P2P (and expensive roadshows) and replace with a robust series of interactive webinars with all the negotiators and subject matter experts.

Anyway, back on track.
Jim, is a 3B4 "status quo" grievance in the works? Thanks!

I hope are reps are smart enough to not file a grievance that has no merit. First off I suspect you are talking about past practice not status quo. To try and use status quo to make a case the company can't award raises to other employees is so far beyond stupid as to be laughable.
If you mean past practice that is a term that covers grey areas in the contract. 3b4 is not a grey area. The company at one time gave Christmas bonuses. They are not in the contract so you can't as a matter of past practice demand them every year. The same applies to the shared rewards program. The raise was 1 Dec and per specific language a 3b4 review was triggered and the contract followed.
If you could somehow claim that past practice applies to areas in the contract that are plainly spelled out you run into the issue of the fact that the companies past practice has in fact been to award non contract employees a raise when a pilot TA has been reached. Contract 2012 being the most recent example.
What we need to be talking about is how to get the company back to the negotiating table because I have news for you. They aren't coming! That is where are focus needs to be.

I have to give credit where credit is due. Jim is working with integrity and despite his gaffe, his openness and interaction with the pilot group is a noteworthy breath of fresh air. That will never go out of style or be overcome by technology. He isn't hiding and he is writing.

His recollection error is just that, a human error...it is misinformation due to his signature block but, IMO, not significant enough to say he or p2p is obsolete.

Black shirt sales job p2p was criminal. If p2p was 1 man, J. Villers, deep, I would be okay with that. Call it something else if it makes us happy.

The problem highlighted is that the title and the person can't be separated. Jim is an advocate for truth to the pilot group. He wasn't spinning anything. He had a recollection error.

Just got the email.....

It's really .02%

Thanks!

.02%.....that will get me one happy hour domestic draft per month when the Capt's not buying.....

I'm glad you read the specific language. I am willing to wait until April 1 to file the grievance because if UAL passes their TA, we will be due 9.25%. If you read it you know what I'm talking about. (that will be without a single concession)

I am not sure about this. 3B4 consists of two parts:

1. A triggering event - a raise to other employees.
2. An industry comparison. Used to be with a few airlines, but due to mergers just looks at some kind of blended 757 CAPT rate with UAL and AMR.

If UAL passes their TA we will definitely be behind UAL and AMR in pay-rates but we still need a triggering event.

I read the language and it talks about a rolling 18 month window. IMHO this is the problem - loose contractual language that is not clear. We can argue that the 01DEC15 raise to the non-contracts is the trigger but the company will certainly argue that it is not a trigger.

I personally think us winning a 3B4 is a crap-shoot at best, and certainly not a fait accompli.

Scoop

I suspect you are correct but I think we should "press to test."

Denny

PS. Off topic but what a heck of a game last night!

What triggering event per the contract would cause a 3B4 review in April? If the company hands out a pay raise on 1 APR (doubtful) then yes a review will again occur. We would not get more then the general pay raise however. What I suspect you will see is no raise in 16 and the standard 3 or 4% in 17. We would then get the same 3 or 4%.

3B4. If, during any consecutive rolling 18-month period, the Company grants an across-the- board increase in base pay rates to non-pilot U.S.-based workgroups covering 30% or more of its non-pilot U.S.-based workforce, then a review of pilot composite hourly rates will be triggered. If, as a result of that review, it is determined that, as of the date the review was triggered, the Delta top-of-scale 757 Captain composite hourly rate is less than 100% of the average of the top-of-scale 757 Captain hourly domestic day rates at United and American, the pilot composite hourly rates will be increased (except as provided in Section 3 B. 4. Note). The amount of increase will be the lesser of the percentage difference between the Delta top-of-scale 757 Captain composite hourly rate and 100% of the top-of-scale average 757 Captain hourly domestic day rates at United and American, or the average percentage increase (except as provided in Section 3 B. 4. Note) granted to the non-pilot U.S.-based workgroups of the Company. Any percentage increase due the pilots will be effective as of the date of the increase that triggered the review. Note: Base pay rates for non-pilot U.S. – based workgroups will only be considered to have increased to the extent they exceed the rates in effect on July 1, 2012. Should an increase for non-pilot U.S.-based workgroups exceed the base pay rates in effect on July 1, 2012, then only the percentage by which such an increase exceeds the applicable July 1, 2012, base pay rates will be considered in the calculation of the percentage increase that may be applied to pilot composite hourly rates.

We can debate online about status quo and 3B4 and grievances and triggering events all day long but I think the only triggering event that really matters is going to occur if and when John Malone decides that the company is not bargaining in good faith.
The new MEC administration has rightfully been very low key so far. Now that negotiations have resumed we should know in relatively short order whether management is serious about reaching an agreement within an acceptable timeline or whether they plan to use the RLA and the NMB to stall and put us "on ice".
If they do that then I expect this MEC and MEC Chairman to put a 500 pound bomb under the notion of constructive engagement and destroy for all time the Moakist labor relations philosophy of "cooperation not confrontation".

I think there are about 13,000 guys who would be prepared to march on Virginia Avenue and drop our backpacks right in front of Richard's office.
We've been carrying this airline for 10 years by sacrificing financially and going "above and beyond" out on the line operationally. I think Richard and Ed might be in for a rude awakening if they openly disrespect this pilot group when the corporation is rolling in cash and everybody is getting rich but us.

Reread the first post on this thread. The PAFCA contractual raise is rumored to be April 1.

I don't think 100 dispatchers will be 30% of the US workforce.

That's what the rolling 18 months is there for. Keeps the company from granting raises to less than 30% at different times to avoid 3B4.
Whenever they grant a raise it triggers an 18 month look back to see if 30% have received raises. They certainly will meet that threshold.

The question will be whether a previously agreed to contractual increase constitutes "granting an across the board increase".

Yeah, those Pats are AWESOME, hu?:D

Oh that Tom Brady, instant Humma.

BUT...what about Seattle? I heard they got a call from Crew Scheduling at half time because they failed to show up at sign in?:rolleyes:

I see what you are saying and agree with you. The company granted the raise when they signed the contract. I think in this case we should file on 1 APR if the company does not grant the raise. I am somewhat surprised the company did not offer the Dec raise to the dispatchers in return for giving up the Apr raises.

When does the UA TA vote end? Isn't the next meeting scheduled with mgmt after that closes?

I've heard from various sources that mgmt is keenly watching how that goes as to how negotiations will go forward with us.

UAL vote closes on Jan 22, not sure what time of day though, and our next meeting with mgt is on Jan 29.

Agree on all counts. My perception of the P2P program being obsolete is not due to his honest mistake here. He's a great dude. I just think the concept is unnecessary and overpriced for what we get

That's what I thought on the UAL vote. I think the timing of the next meeting is absolutely intentional.

Our voting ends at 10am EST on the 22nd. One of the webinars said we'd have the results that day.

No, but more than 30% have had raises in a rolling 18 months on that date. I think their membership is like 380. They may also get a raise the following April 1, 2017. If you look 18 months back from that date the Dec. 1 2015 raise is also within 18 months in 2017.

Unless the company did a quiet deal with PAFCA mid-contract in 2015. Anyone have a dispatcher friend? In that case my backpack would be to heavy to carry and I may need a sick day for the emotional distress caused by the complete and premeditated betrayal which shows the full effort being used against the pilot group after commending us for our professionalism and performance excellence.

The potential grievances are piling up.

We'll see what management has to say on the 29th.

I agree. That backpack is getting mighty heavy.

I agree this is not a fait accompli. This is however a duty of our union to apply and defend our contract and its administration under C2012. If that benefits our negotiating position that would be an opportunistic benefit. We are operating under C2012 and may be for some time. We may eventually have another CBA if the PWA is not vigorously defended. The original intent of the language written 12 years ago can not be dismissed. The application of this key benefit will be noticeable and applicable near the end of the PWA around the amendable date because it continues to raise pay rates during negotiations. In effect it removes the time penalty of the RLA.

This language is something I'm sure management has subject matter experts pouring over. Obviously they have identified 3B4 as a problem needing to be addressed. This language much like profit sharing, if changed or removed will permanently alter its benefit for the future. Once its gone it will never return.

I agree.

Finally, traction with the doubters. Thank you for defending your opinion, seriously. I know several lurkers were/are doubters as well.

<signed> The crazy 3B4 guy.

Guys,

I am sorry for not being INSTANTANEOUS, as I really do try to vet everything that I post, and hopefully, you can understand, that it does take some time. I have had numerous conversations over the weekend to try and get the exact correct information

In any case, I believe I misspoke, or at least was misinterpreted. Under the REJECTED TA, (why are we still talking about this?) PS payout in 2016 would have been unaffected (in other words we are about to get the same dollars we would have). PS payouts in 2017 would have been calculated on a reduced formula for 2016 earnings.

In 2016 a pilot would have seen the same W-2 (plus 14% roughly) but in 2017 his PS payout would have been decreased by about ~6%; plus with a 3% pay raise; you get a net PAY CUT for the 2017 earnings year.

Again, in any case, that ship has sailed, and our NC is on to a different proposal. I feel very certain that "IF" anything is done with PS in this next TA, it will be VERY transparent as to the exact tradeoff with regards to PS, and there will me no muddying of the waters with pay rates or other items.

Again, I say "IF".

Sorry for any misunderstandings with my previous post.


Jim Villers
P2P Chairman

I cannot state that a grievance is "in the works".

However, the issue of the timing of the non-contract employee pay raises (December 1st vs. January 1st) was a topic of discussion at the November MEC meeting, and it IS being investigated.

There is the written word, and there is the "intent" of the written word.

It is not being ignored by the MEC Administration.

Jim Villers
P2P Chairman

Jim, I appreciate your work but there should be no "IF". I think the membership has been clear on that.

I'm pretty much just a dumb ex-mil pilot,but if we trade our PS for pay, won't that just become the new standard 3 years later when they look at United and American pay rates? Even worse they could say we are so high above them we don't get a raise? It seems like once you monetize it, it will be gone forever.

You made my point for me. PS should be separate from payrates.

Just reviewing the previous years 10-K reports prior to tomorrow. Here's my argument for variable compensation remaining in pilot compensation. The at risk portion will not really be at risk.

From the 2013 10-K amendment filing:



Pay for performance

Pay for performance is the foundation of our executive compensation philosophy. Our executive compensation program places a substantial portion of total compensation for 2013 at risk: 94% of our Chief Executive Officer’s and 90% of our other named executive officers’ total compensation. Furthermore, the majority of total compensation is paid in the form of Delta stock, which, together with our stock ownership guidelines, aligns the interests of management to those of stockholders. We believe our stockholders recognize this alignment as shown by the significant approval of our executive compensation program through an advisory vote at our 2012 and 2013 annual meetings.

The P&C Committee sets stretch performance goals under our annual and long-term incentive plans to drive Delta’s business strategy and to deliver value to our stockholders. Consistent with these principles:


• The vast majority of the compensation opportunity for our executive officers is earned contingent upon Delta’s achieving its financial, operational and customer services goals and stock price performance.

• Based on our strong performance in 2013, we paid out 168.75% of target under our annual incentive plan and 200% of target under our 2012 long-term incentive plan.

• The P&C Committee designs our incentive plans to closely align the interests of management with frontline employees by using many of the same financial and operational performance measures in both our executive and broad-based employee compensation programs.
If there is no payout under Delta’s broad-based employee Profit Sharing Program for the year:
- There will be no payment under the annual incentive plan’s financial performance measure.
- Any payment to executive officers for other performance measures may not exceed the target level.
- All payments will be made in restricted stock rather than in cash, which will not vest until there is a subsequent profit sharing payment.

The Profit Sharing Program paid out a record $506 million for 2013.



2013 Compensation Decisions.

The P&C Committee reviews our executive compensation program annually. In 2013, few changes were made to the program. These changes are described in this Compensation Discussion and Analysis.

Jim -

I don't know you but you seem to have the respect of several informed posters. Your willingness to go public, get it wrong, listen to pilots, admit mistakes, and correct the error has earned my respect as well. I encourage you to do more posting. The forum has a good track record of vetting documented information, take that as involvement and not criticism. No harm, no foul. Nice recovery. (#%$@ing GPWS) :D

Ask your reps. The total value after analyzing the entire TA (pluses and minuses) was $113.4M in 2015 alone. That's money out of our pockets. That's a smaller PS check in February because we earned less, that's less DC funding for our retirements. All the reps know the values, in oipen session at the September meeting none of the fabricators of the joint comm could could explain how they came up with 4%. Just a deer in the headlights look.

What's our 1E9 protection protecting the Delta brand now? :eek:

ALPA warned us, the fabricators stuck their head in the sand and suggested we'd get 3%.

That's spin. The money is earned in 2016, or 2017, or 2018, as is the PS. When it's paid depends. An early partial payout of PS, like we saw last year blows the whole "we'll see a paycut in 2017" out of the water. Besides, there is no pay cut, PS is not pay, it's profit sharing. That whole line was just spin.