LCA directed to address orange lanyards
 

I have flown w several LCAs since I started wearing my orange lanyard and not a peep. Things seemed to have changed since the big LCA meeting this week! My CA (LCA) shows up and one of the first things he says is that I am out of uniform compliance and I should not be wearing my lanyard in public. He then explains that this was brought up at the meeting. After our trip I said thanks for a great trip and for not making me take off the lanyard.

Sometimes the company is so low rent it is embarrassing.

redship,

Check your Pm's

Now you know what keeps Graham up at night. Not training by memo or our secondary barrier video on YouTube. Outstanding Delta Standards!!

I have to admit my morale was really high when I recieved my A 321 training on the latest CD. State of the art.



But this direction brought it back to a 20 on a scale of 1 to 100.

LCA's are not your supervisor, or management. That's CPO or above. If confronted by a LCA about a lanyard you might ask them politely who negotiated their LCA pay.

Chatted with a LCA in ATL yesterday with both me and F/O in orange. Not a word.

A large majority of the LCA's are independent thinkers and won't be the police of hats/lanyards.

No Police
 

I fly several times a month with LCA & did today as well. Not one of has said a thing about the lanyard to me. They just said DAL doesn't think they should wear one.

I think we have a fantastic LCA corps, but reference the above I heard that one wore his orange lanyard to the LCA meeting. Gutsy mf'er, if true.

FWIW I wore my orange lanyard for both of my 7ER TOEs recently and neither LCP (including a LLCP) said anything about it. That was before the meeting though....

This was clarified by Ed Sternstein. The LCA are not the enforcers of the lanyard policy. Enforcement is a chief pilot responsibility, and if they have decided not to enforce it, then the LCA are not going to either.

The LCA are expected to wear their Flight Standards lanyards when in a flight standards role. This can be interpreted whenever on duty.

His bottom line was that the LCA need to remain apolitical (for the marines, that means don't take either side) when flying the line.

I have it on very good authority at least one fleet has taken this thing to the extreme in demanding LCAs order anyone they are checking to remove lanyard. When asked what the LCA was supposed to do if the checkee refused, they were told to notify the checkee's Chief Pilot. They asked Then what? So, they called a chief pilot and he said he would support the LCA doing whatever he felt was appropriate, up to and including cancelling the flight.

Imagine that.

Hopefully, the guys fighting so hard against us won't benefit from the new contract. Oh. Wait.

I'm going to go ahead and say that didn't happen.

The thing people seem to forget is that the lanyard actually means nothing. It represents nothing and amounts to nothing.

At the end of the day, you will vote yes or no for whatever is put in front of you. That is all that is going to happen.

The ball is in managements court. If they think a POS is going to play they are silly.

The reality is that United got pay raises with no concessions, that's the lowest the company can go. That's it. The market has decided and that's it. Their play for concessions is a futile and lost play.

If you want to see management lose its mind, get rid of your blue, or black ink pens, and switch to filling out all company documents in pink glitter pen.

I also have it on good authority that SD said they were not going to enforce either. Note that recent SD memo's make no note of lanyards.

So Ed Sternstiens boss is not enforcing, Ed is not, yet a certain fleet is? Please name the fleet if you don't mind. In any case please report this to your Reps and Contract Admin.

Remember unless being checked (and even that is questionable) LCA's are not in your supervisory chain of command.

As always, be respectful, comply under protest, remind the LCA they are violating the contract, remind them thier LCA pay is a union negotiated benefit, and then take their name and report to Contract Admin and consider filing a grievance.

Yeah, the lanyards won't make or break a TA or negotiations. That said how much contract violation and intimidation is OK?

If particular LCA's want to play this role, perhaps they are OK with being placed in executive inactive union status.

Based on the fact that Delta Management is hard over on posting industry leading 'completion rates', I pity the fool LCA who cancels a flight, fighting over a lanyard!

It's not about the lanyard, and it's not even really about negotiations. It's about control and the proper pilot-management relationship. Management sees us in a subservient role and thinks we should be willing to take whatever scraps they give us. The previous union leadership didn't really do anything to dispel that notion, and clearly there's a certain portion of the pilot group that still sees themselves in that role. "If my commanding officer, err boss, says don't wear union swag, I'm not going to wear union swag." The new guys are trying to recalibrate this relationship as a partnership as equals. The highly visible orange is a symbol of that. Now I know some LCAs see themselves in management's camp, but not all or even the majority, and so making them enforce the lanyard policy would have been a truly dumb@ss move on management's part. Not surprised they're not going that route, and it seems like they've backed down on lanyard enforcement altogether.

Then they DID say something...

Hear! Hear!

Jungle, agree with your post with the exception of this: Now I know some LCAs see themselves in management's camp, but not all or even the majority.
I would say a minority of the LCAs do not think of themselves as management.

I heard it is the 717 Fleet Captain that's hard over on the LCA's, and telling the NEW HIRES not to wear a lanyard.

What a bunch of tough guys, threatening new hires now.

Fking tools.

Or perhaps it's being misinterpreted?

Maybe the LCA's might be trying to do them a favor, and telling new hires, "Look, while you are on probation, best not kick the hornet's nest..."

I hope it's the latter, not the former.

Many years ago, (1989) I did have a BOS 767 LCA tell me to take off my, "No B Scale" tie tack. He said, "I just want you to know, that is NOT authorized" .

I was not a new hire though, I had 4 years in already and wasn't getting an IOE from him, so I left it on for the whole 4 day trip, but it was a long, quiet, 4 days. No wonder his trips were always in open time!

I think it has more to do with how long the LCA has been here, and how much he lost in the Bankruptcy, and how many years he's got left to retire.

I know the ones I fly with are not like that at all, they know they aren't management because they know they aren't being paid in stock options. Ever since they lost their $3 Million DB retirement plan, and a boat load of money every year in ongoing pay cuts, there aren't too many kool aid kids left on the 777.

There is this ONE guy though...:eek:

Scambo can verify. :D

Tim, hoping you are correct...just think if the chairman asks you to show unity and support by wearing the orange, they should do it. They are in the union, if they all showed up with them on...what would happen....all of the pilots are a unified group, or not.
Leaders should take the lead. JMHO

I would hope the company is smarter than that and wouldn't **** off their LCA.

Could you imagine the consequences to the operation if the LCA didn't work as much or left flight standards en masse?

If push comes to shove, how many senior ****ed off LCA are going to side with the company?

Sum Ting Wong......

Lemme guess. LCA initials MC?

His initial were...Pete Martin, a non-ALPA member (prior to agency shop) and one of the founders of the PPA as well. :rolleyes:

Careful there, hypotheticals is what got TC sanctioned! ;)


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Not sure but I don't think ALPA negotiated LCA pay if that is what you're insinuating... at least I can't find it in the PWA compensation section.

+1

Great point

Section 11 Training C12b.1

Did you know PPA stood for Penny Pinching A------s?

No. That's "aviators", but I like the way you think (same number of letters).

Is Pete the guy who wore a tie tack with his testosterone level number on it?

11.C.12.b.1

I think it would be appropriate to ask if they are getting their ALPA negotiated override while advocating violating the contract and being involved in anti-Union activities :rolleyes:

Yeah, I think that's why his tie was always limp...:D

I believe the current B717 Fleet Captain is the former DALPA Merger Committee chairman which makes me doubt he would have a hard-on for the lanyards but you never know.

As for the new hires, if he is, in fact, telling them not to wear the lanyard, maybe he is doing so out of caution for their probabtionary status.

The LCA override sucks. The regionals paid a better percentage 20 years ago.

Just wondering: R. B.? :cool:

The fleet captain owns the sim instructors, the LCAs work for the Chief Line Check Pilot...two completely separate chains of command. So the fleet captain is not telling the LCPs anything with regard to the lanyard.

I've never had to fly with him, but heard some stories. Most of them in ATL are great guys (I don't know any in DTW) and I enjoy flying with them.

The 'one guy' in ATL I was thinking of is the same one who prohibits the use of Vertical Speed, ever, likes to get all preachy in the cockpit, not about religion but about his techniques, and takes himself waaayyy too seriously. :rolleyes:

Thanks for clearing that up, I never heard a name, just that it was coming from that fleet's LCA's in particular. Not sure about any of the other fleets, I know nobody in my fleet gives a hoot.

There's a lot of guys in our fleet who have completely lost faith in Alpa. Completely. It will be a tough road, even for JM, to bring them into the "unity" fold.

That is more of the driver, IMO, of any lack of lanyard wearing. We often look at the 777As as having it made. But, those guys are all dead zoners. They dont care what you wear around your neck.