New Hire Choices: DAL vs AA?
 

Many folks headed to the airlines are getting choices of multiple airlines to work for as they all are hiring. It is an incredible time that hasn't been seen in decades and yes, a great problem to have.

Besides domicile locations, is there is any big difference between the legacies that clueless newbies like myself should be concerned with when looking at career choices? DAL has a great reputation, but has hired 2500+ in the past two years and places like AA (and even UAL) are just starting a major hiring effort.

Appreciate any thoughts. Since seniority is everything, how does company treatment of employees fit into the equation?

Experts, please also add UAL into the equation and your assessment...

AA is notoriously difficult to get hired onto from the street. Since you appear to be military that may improve your odds slightly. AA's philosophy going forward is built on the flow model whereby pilots from the wholly-owned regionals flow in a contractually obligated manner. That's the reason they hire very few off the street...just not a lot of slots left over after the flows. AA loves RJs and all the bickering that ensues between their regionals. They think it somehow fosters more competition on price even though it sacrifices service.

Delta's hiring over the last 2.5 years plus has been more balanced than in their past. They seem to see the benefits of all manners of pilot backgrounds, i.e. Military, civilian, corporate, cargo, et al. In the end it all comes down to your education, flight experience, college degree, and your overall body of work professionally and personally. Delta's stated goal is to reduce the number of RJs and thus increase more mainline growth.

All I really know of United is they are about to, if not already, cease running new hire classes for the remainder of the year. Reasons I've heard are reducing training costs for the fiscal year to an anticipation of a weakening domestic economy after the election. United appears to also be growing domestically but I'm not sure if that is to coincide with a decrease in RJs.

Additionally, everyone you speak to at these places will paint their own biased portrait of their life at their shop. I've been at Delta almost two years and despite the naysayers who are emotionally caught up in the contract debates our future is bright. Our focus right now is domestic growth so there will be some that say stay away because we don't have any real wide body growth for the foreseeable future. If you measure your career worth based on the size of your aircraft then they may have a valid point.

Retirement, retirement, retirement. Did I mention retirements.

As to how a company treats pilots that changes with the wind. Have you read the vitriol against DAL management on hear? And, at AA I can't imagine sharing a cockpit with USAir guys or AmWest guys after the SLI comes out. Also ask lots of questions about reserve rules. Can days off be "rolled"? Plus AA has some horrible contract gives like 3 day ten hour trips. Not allowed at UAL 'cuz contract says min 5 hours per calendar day. Or how about being asked to go to training in the middle of the night? Lots of "devils" in the details when it comes to life at the bottom of the list. Get informed.

UAL has hired about the same as DAL. Don't know what the numbers are at DAL, but at UAL we are retiring 400 or so per year for the next 7 or 8 years.


DAL 18/777 and 9/747s

AA 67/777 and 0/747

UAL 75/777 and 22/747 and 15/777 coming in 2017 for a total of 90/777 plus 35/A350s coming starting in 2018

and no I don't think an A330 deserves to be in this count as it is 200,000 lbs lighter at max and pays less.

That is interesting logic though because at DL the A330 seats more than the B777.

How does that figure into your equation?

I like how you just arbitrarily eliminate the 330 because you want to. It does many of the same missions as these other types and it happens to make United look better on paper. Delta is getting the 330 with increased MTOGW, how does that fit into your calculus? We're also getting a good order of 350s.

When is United planning on parking the 747s? A new hire has a practically zero chance of ever flying it so I wouldn't even include it in your count.

And you happen to be proving my point about measuring career worth based on the size of your aircraft.

Historically these comparisons were meaningless and many of the "Top Choice" Airlines are now gone: Pan-AM, TWA, Braniff, Eastern were at times "the place to go." With that said the industry appears to be stabilizing and unless a major change like Cabotage shakes things up the Big 3 and SWA appear to here for the long call.

My personal take is all 4 of these Airlines and FDX and UPS will all be very similar with minor jockeying for the most desirable spot. Yes they will all experience the vicissitudes associated with the industry but over a long career it will probably be a wash - and besides unless you have a crystal ball it doesn't matter.

My own take is that where you want to live is probably the one variable that will for sure affect your career. If you can drive to work - go for it.

Scoop

Ok you have said this twice and I can see that you are trying to be humble but here are the facts.

I probably made more money this year than most of the DL pilots at my Seniority level, with a greater QOL and more days off. Even including DLs much larger profit sharing. The reason is because we have more aircraft on the top pay scale. That is a simple fact.

Most pilots don't care how big the airplane is. We do care about comfort though. Must of us care about QOL and career earning potential.

Flying international will ALWAYS offer more days off and higher QOL, its just a fact, and the wide bodies will always offer significantly more pay and that is a fact. If you were to take a pilot hired at DL and one hired at UA on the same day at the same age, forget the uncontrollable problems such as mergers, bankruptcy, furloughes, strikes etc...., and both pilots maximize their pay by bidding up the pay scale as soon as it is available, The United pilot will make more money than the Delta pilot over their career.

If you flipped the pay scale you would see people hired into the wide bodies and junior CAs on the 777. Follow the money.......

As far as your question it comes down to what you want to do. All three majors are the same, whoever is the best today will be the worst tomorrow.

If you want to fly international and have that QOL and pay go to United or American.

If you want to be a Captain within a year or 2 go to Delta.

Other than those 2 things pick the base you want and go to that airline.

At AA 777, 787, A330 and A350 all pay the same.

Same at UA

Does Sunvox know that?;)

Can you call Ed Bastian and company. Tell them this!!!

Not true at DAL which is the forum under which this thread is posted and the AA top rate is more than 5% below UAL and UAL includes 767-400 which brings the total percent of pilots at the top pay rate even higher which is really the point; % of pilots at top pay rate ;)

Plus we all know AA got a crap contract that undercuts QOL as part of the shenanigans surrounding the contentious merger.

at delta we live in opposite world. i make far more as a NB-A than i ever did as a 777-A. not that w-2 is all important.

as for qol....avoiding ULH wear and tear, and the environmental and hostile actors threat are probably the most significant offsets for the more pedestrian domestic schedule.

The variability in W-2s is huge even between two people in the same seat and this is true at any airline. There are 777 FOs out earning 737 Caps at UAL and vice versa. Depends on how much the individual wants to work and how much they use "schedule optimization". Rumor is some guys at UAL are breaking $400k by maximizing double pay trips every month.

Point is the OP seemed to off-hand eliminate UAL, and obviously I am highly biased since I'm UAL, but I think UAL is the best choice out there today based on retirements, pay, QOL, and pretty much any other issue you pick. Our contract even has a "Snap Up" clause so whatever rates they get at DAL we will get the same at UAL.

Ignoring FedEx and UPS (TA) of course...

the airline industry is a crapshoot. the priority delivery carriers probably not so much. and seniority is paramount.

good advice on surviving a career from a retiring captain 30 yrs ago still applies...

1. if you are married...dont get divorced.

2. always live on the pay one seat below you hold.

3. find a second job.

4. plan on your life being turned upside down every 6 or 7 years.

QOL at the cargo carriers is terrible. No amount of contract improvements can change the fact that the majority of the flying is back side of the clock plus talk about contentious management . . . wow. A good buddy of mine is Fed Ex. Wouldn't take his job at twice the pay.

True Dat!! :D

United has airport reserve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The original poster did not ask about FedEx or UPS.

Thank you all! This is great advice across the board.

I'll pick the domicile and do what I can with whatever I fly and keep the family happy. I do have a second job just in case I pick wrongly!

Appreciate the words of wisdom from incredible experience on this forum. Very humbled that there are options to many of us newbies.

True story. We have NB FOs out earning their Captains, without working all that much extra, if at all. Heck, I was lucky enough to get to listen to a 75 captain complain to some union guys that, "it wasn't fair, that the last 3 FOs he has flown with are out earning him...and mostly working less!" Staying senior in your seat is huge at Delta (as I'm sure it is as most place). As Bob said, we also have NB Captains out earning WB Captains. Crazy! :confused:

*post mostly meant of the OPs awareness.

God forbid you need to use it, but our Health Insurance at Delta is terrible. TERRIBLE! Out of pocket max for a family of 5, is somewhere between 14k and 15k a year. Keep that in mind when making a decision.

Staying senior in your seat is key to QOL and money at Delta. I know 88 captains making far more money than 777 capts. I also know 717 FOs making far more than 717 capts.

Staying senior in your seat is the key to maximizing QOL and/or pay at Delta, doesn't matter what seat it is.

Yes.....health insurance sucks at Delta. If you live in ATL you can't even use it right now.

Bigger pays more. Guys at DAL don't get that. That is why our career earnings will always lack.

Proceed with telling me how we will all be working for RJ wages if we go to a longevity system. :rolleyes:

Uhhhhh, that's many, many multiples of my max out-of-pocket with a family of four.

I am really glad I didn't have that extra kid. Looks like the third kid triggers a 3X increase in max out-of-pocket family max.:eek:

Agree 1000%. There's something in this career for everyone. Nighttime cargo is not it for me.

i hope you never fly international then....because it's the same thing

Wait, Delta international flies a few legs to a hub, sits for a few hours then flies a few legs back to an out base? Hmm...better rethink my bids!

you knew i meant back side of the clock flying.

I've flown both widget international (EU and Asia) and purple domestic. If anyone wants a comparison of how it works I'll be glad to talk via PM (lest you hear from people who have never done either how bad back side of the clock flying is). The rest strategies I use wouldn't work for everyone but I've found what works for me most of the time.

Back to the "my airline is better than yours" arguments.

UA

*what I haven't done is purple international. It seems to me people love the flying but some can't stomach the long trips. Many of the trips are 12 to 15 days (I think) and that doesn't work for everyone's family. But lots of long layovers and at least on the 777 a nice crew rest facility. New hires going to the 777 every month too.

Gold HSA has a 2,600 deductible after which there is a 5K co insurance max. That is 7,600, which when added to the annual premiums puts the total amount paid "out of pocket" over 11K for a family of four. If you include dental insurance, you get close to the claim of 14K per year. If you jump through a few hoops, you can get company contributions to the HSA taking the medical total down to about 10K. If you are on the HRA plan, you will pay around 12K if you qualify for all 1,600 of company contributions.

Not necessarily. With rigs and average min days, the lines are blurring more and more. In many cases you can hold domestic trips higher per day credit than many international trips. By the time you can hold the tiny percentage of deep Europe or whatever on a wide body, you could have already been holding 7-8+ hour day turns (or other higher power trips) on a narrow body, and in some cases be home every night, on 9 to 10 days of work a month. With no off circadian anything.

Lots of EU trips are right at or maybe very slightly above the daily average already, right along with 100% of all narrow body trips. All without the incredibly punishing circadian flipping schedules that, I don't care what anyone claims, takes a heavy toll on human health.

International can be more fun, and certainly has some soft perks like always being fed first class food, etc. along with the aura/lifestyle/prestige that for many brings a lot of value. And as a rule international *tends* to be more commutable and its definitely more logistical to have a second wife in Prague than Des Moines. But the glory days of "Paris, First Class, International" are highly exaggerated from a QOL standpoint. Yes of course there's exceptions, but for the most part its really not as amazing as the old and persistent stereotypes suggest it is.

You should qualify that statement, my best buddy is 88A and I'm 330A. We both fly what we bid and don't pickup extra. My PS check was considerably higher than his. So, unless you're an 88A picking up and flying a lot more, you're not going to make more. Plus I fly 12 days and he flies 15 days a month. I've done both jobs too.

I won't dispute what your saying, but you're also cherry picking the best of domestic. There's no doubt the int'l is tough on your body. It's a choice. I commute and wouldn't do it to domestic. Just a preference.

UnusualAttitude, PM Sent

Not really. Look at most Intl trips. They're 5:15-6:00 per day average more often than not. Yes there are some high value exceptions, just like domestic. I know someone doing all 8+ hour day turns/high power 2 days right now, and he is no where near being able to consistently hold far EU/etc prime international.

Its not a dig against international at all. Just that the stereotypes about phenomenal productivity are greatly exaggerated. Now if your main point is that UAL/AA offer more higher paying opportunities while we flounder to outsource what even our outsourcing competitors are able to do themselves, well then you absolutely have a point.