Its safe to say that an earth shattering, historic TA rejection absolutely didn't mean all we need to do is tweak/rearrange the deck chairs, etc. POSTA1.0 was entirely unacceptable. There is no way to repackage it. TA2.0 needs to not only be better on the pay things etc, but most important it needs to drop almost all of the concessions. That is why POSTA1.0 tanked. Without (most of) those negatives, it would have passed at the time. Now IMO it will need more pay, full retro and way less concessions to stand a chance.

If it meets everything you want, except retro, are you going to say no until we get it?

That's not what you're asking and you know it.

You're testing the waters with the "Indecent Proposal" logic that always leads one to conclude that everything is for sale.

Except everything isn't for sale. Not now at least.

I'm reasonable and have said many times there are quite a few areas where I would agree to help them address their concerns. Gee what if we only got 99% retro, but we got 50% raises? If you would agree to that, then you don't insist on full retro, etc. See how we can contort that and every other issue ad naseum?

Full retro is 100% reasonable. We are the best pilot group in the industry for them despite being completely disrespected and financially taken advantage of so they can light cigars with $1000 bills and burn pallets of cash right in front of us whilst paying themselves historic compensation during the most unbelievable times of profits.

I'm not talking about full retro back to 2001 with interest or full retro DB etc. Full retro to Jan 1, 2016 is 100% fair and reasonable and is so easily affordable it wouldn't even move the needle on their end. Not to mention, its the right thing to do.

Full retro is reasonable right now. In 6 months or 2 years (after all, we can wait, right?), if we negotiate a 18% pay increase, it isn't. But there are those that will say we say no until the company knuckles under. That is naive at best and laughable at worst.

You said a month ago retro was already gone. Which is it?

No. I said that without a deal by the end of this month it will be gone. It's just my opinion. It's no less valid than anyone else's. I would think the ONLY way we get it after the first of the year is if we invert the pay increases something like 3/3/3/18. 18/3/3/3 with retro ain't gonna happen after a year.

Haha. I love how the Moakies want to blame the no voters for this crap show. The negotiating team is the Moakies parting gift and its clear the damage they intended is reaping its consequences. Can't have it both ways.

Why is it everyone thinks retro to 1 Jan is not possible? Atlas 14% of whatever we get was already expected in this years profits. The money is there they haven't spent it. We aren't asking for retro to the original contract of Jul 15. I'm sure they are not lowering ticket prices in expectation of no retro for pilots

Survey's and polling. If they're paying more attention to a small minority that have time to call and email continuously and not listening to the group they're letting us all down.

I think this is one of the best, and most illustrative posts Jerry has ever made. It's breath-taking in its' candor and honesty.

Translation: we're only trying to get the tip in, but the pilots keep squirming away.

If you're not about to retire REAL SOON, you need to really, really pay attention. I believe a lot of this battle has nothing to do with a TA that benefits all, but a shift of wealth from everyone, to those about to retire.

Imagine if you will a few debt-ridden elderly pilots in power, almost complete power, but still slightly encumbered by the process, and serving on a MEC where some of the people are trying to do the will of the group.

For these men, the will of the group is an obstacle, not a goal.

They know that anything we get will be of a defined total value. They know very well that the vast majority wants a DC plan, and DC increases, as Jerry admitted. This is a problem. Getting their fair share is not sufficient: they need more. The only vehicle to getting away with a bunch now, is to try to convince everyone they'll get a lot later, and placate them long enough to be under the first group protected by the PBGC.

This entire group knows full well that a DB plan is an absurdity. It isn't just a weak promise, but hostage we can't afford to lose. It's a story that's already ended very badly, an epic nightmare that these men want to re-package as a fairy tale.

A DB plan would be a monstrously expensive adventure. As one of the 12 explained to me, it would cost billions (like 5). Very sensibly, he said that if he could get billions, he would want to distribute it as DC, then pay.

From what I hear, Jerry is right that some in the MEC had to artificially force more DB propaganda into the polling, because it contradicts the survey. No matter how hard they try, the Delta pilots see right through the manipulations, and ask for a retirement plan in their own name. This infuriates Jerry, and those he works with, but here it is: the Delta pilots keep asking for what makes the most sense for them: a retirement in their own name.

Jerry let out a bit too much than he should have, I think, but he's doing everyone a service. We're getting a glimpse of the future, and the future is actually the past: this POS 96 in the making.

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To be VERY clear, I'm not painting the older pilot demographics in a particular way. I think most guys are sincere and honorable in their intentions. I'm talking about what I think is a huge factor behind the current MEC dysfunction. Between the guys just trying to kill the union, the guy trying to kill a deal over RJ's at any cost, and the "targeted retirement" guys trying to kill a deal until we're desperate enough for a quick cram-down of POS 96, it's difficult to get the Delta pilots' interests represented at the table.