Unhappy American Pilots to Push Union Switch
 

An American buddy of mine posted this and it gave me a chuckle in light of our seemingly never going away DPA.

Unhappy American Pilots to Push Union Switch After Five Decades

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...r-five-decades

A group of American Airlines Group Inc. pilots is preparing a push to give up their 53-year-old independent union and join the larger Air Line Pilots Association, after peers at rival carriers secured tentative contracts with better pay and benefits.
Resolutions calling for creation of an Allied Pilots Association committee to evaluate the issue will be introduced in at least two pilot bases over the next two weeks, according to interviews with aviators supporting the change. The proposals could go to the union’s board for approval, with the goal of merging APA into ALPA, they said.

Frustration has been building over the past two months among APA members after pilots at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Southwest Airlines Co. agreed to tentative terms that would boost their compensation above that in a contract American aviators reached last year. If Delta pilots approve their accord, a provision in United Continental Holdings Inc.’s labor agreement would increase pay at that carrier to the same rates. United Parcel Service Inc. and FedEx Corp. aviators also have gained new contracts since last year.

“There’s a well-founded belief that APA, as an independent union, underperforms,” said Mitch Vasin, an American first officer based in Phoenix. “It can’t compete with a national union with the resources and political connections and the size of ALPA. This has been at a simmer, and when the Delta pilots reached their tentative agreement, it turned the heat up a lot.”

‘Simply Unacceptable’
Supporters of the merger also say APA’s structure, with a 22-member board, makes reaching consensus difficult and slows decisions. While ALPA represents Delta, United and FedEx pilots, Southwest and UPS have independent unions similar to APA.

“Our pilot compensation will soon likely rank a distant fifth or sixth in the industry,” APA President Dan Carey told the union board last week. “As the largest pilot group in the world, employed by the most profitable airline in the world, that’s simply unacceptable.”

Carey told members “it’s time to have the debate” about closer ties to the larger union, although he didn’t call for a combination. The two unions have worked together in the past, including APA’s use of an ALPA expert in contract negotiations.

“We believe that all pilots would greatly benefit through single representation,” Tim Canoll, ALPA president, said in an e-mailed statement. “With a strong, unified voice, pilots would be even better positioned to secure valuable improvements to advance our profession and further strengthen aviation safety and security.”

Forgotten Reason
APA represents 15,000 pilots from four carriers that have merged into one since 2001: American, US Airways, America West and TWA. ALPA has more than 54,000 pilots at 31 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. APA split off from ALPA in 1963, and “pretty much everyone has forgotten any reason why,” said Mitch Groder, an American first officer based in Philadelphia.

Some pilots oppose the return to ALPA out of concern that dues would rise and that the bigger national structure is inefficient. Also, the larger union represents regional airline pilots, whose interests don’t always line up with those of the bigger carriers.

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Joining ALPA would provide many benefits, advocates say. Besides gaining lobbying clout in Washington on regulatory, safety and security issues, it would give American pilots access to the larger union’s legal, economic, financial and other experts. A stronger ALPA could take on issues like overhauling the federal law governing airline labor and how union contracts are treated in bankruptcy, said Neil Roghair, a former APA vice president who advocated a merger when he left office in February.
American pilots also could influence ALPA, he said in an online posting, noting they would account for more than 20 percent of the combined union’s total membership.

“The debate ought to happen,” said Vasin, the American first officer. “If it doesn’t go through, at a bare minimum we can identify things that can be changed at APA to make it better.”

They'd be the biggest pilot group in ALPA and in 4 years would have pilots in all the national committees with many of them in leadership positions.

We'd all be better off with them by our side.

I have been at UAL for 20 years. Over the course of that 20 years, American pilots have been compensated considerably higher than we have for probably 15 of those years (maybe 16). We got a huge contract in 2000 that lasted 2 years, and we finally got back to that level 10 months ago. I think looking at a short window of time in the last year, and wanting to $#itcan your union because of that would be very short sighted.

A friend of mine at USair said APA was the biggest breath of fresh air he had seen in 30 years.

It started with "a group of pilots..." so how many are they talking about?

I doubt this is anywhere close to a card drive but who knows. Speaking of DPA, they seem to be very, very back burner lately anyway.

That's because Delta, NWA, and United all filed for bankruptcy 10-12 years ago and essentially had contract terms imposed on them by a bankruptcy judge. American pilot agreed to cuts, but not as steep as those taken by the pilots at carriers who filed for bankruptcy protection.

The APA - ALPA merger was almost a done deal until 9/11 sidelined everything.

Coffee meet laptop.

>>They'd be the biggest pilot group in ALPA and in 4 years would have pilots in all the national committees with many of them in leadership positions.

We'd all be better off with them by our side. <<

This is an interesting thought, thanks for bringing it up.

OTOH, Getting them on board could be a catalyst for a significant dues reduction (and they can start picking up some of the tab for the smaller carriers in ALPA).

Another issue to consider might be what kind of legal festivities are going on with the various pre-merger groups at the new "happy family" over at American. We don't need to inherit any of that.

The American pilots agreed to those cuts early in the economic downturn before anyone filled chapter 11. That allowed AMR to preserve large amounts of cash. That was widely criticized by other unions but in the end turned out to be smart.

Guys, it's about time. All I can say is that, yes while our pay may have been temporarily higher than others, our work rules have always lagged behind UAL and DAL. APA has long been broken beyond repair and management long ago figured out how to take advantage of that - starting with the B scale sellout in the '80s.

To the United pilot who commented above (Probe) - you couldn't be more mistaken. Had AA pilots been ALPA, we wouldn't have taken it in the shorts all these years, and especially this last JCBA where we are still working under BK work rules while the company is taking in billions.

Here's how bad AA plays APA: we asked for significant work rule improvements for our JCBA and were told they couldn't afford it. Then, Kirby leaves AA for UA and management slips him a cool $13 million just to pacify him. That $13 million could have gone towards our non existent hotel language or our non existent min calendar day.

Bottom line is that APA gets played like a fiddle every contract cycle. We have NEVER had a true industry leading contract.

It's time for ALPA. Our joining would not only greatly strengthen ALPA, but dues would probably also come down, and there would be one more legacy pilot group joined in membership off of which to pattern bargain from.

The world's largest airline pilot group should not be represented by a broken, ineffective in house boys club. We need a global and powerful union.

Bring it on.

*Claps enthusiastically*

*Standing ovation*

Well said!

More political offices to be filled by wanna be managers. National is broken, expensive and a club as well. The only way to get a retirement at an ALPA represented carrier is to work for ALPA.

Oops, did I just think that or type that? Doh!

Incoming!!! Heads down.

Seems pretty obvious the best way to kill threats to our jobs and bring the profession to where it should be is to have as many airline pilots on the same page working together as possible.

If only...

Absolutely true. And AA coming back to ALPA can only help the profession, as ALPA will become that much stronger.

How will you vote on our agreement again? Exactly. If only....

Undecided, and I have an active DPA card. That should give you fodder for awhile. My concerns about the TA are mostly how this sets us up for future negotiations and company planned outsourcing. My heartburn with ALPA spans 3 airlines and 20 yrs. It is dysfunctional. We are lucky we saw the dysfunction as a group last year.

Teamsters, DPA2 minus the drama, something has to be viable.

I agree 100%.

The monster up in Herndon needs to be brought under control.
Whoever can do that will be a hero to all airline pilots.

Way too much of our dues money goes to lawyers and useless bureaucrats.

We need to starve the beast.
Lower our dues to 1% and make ALPA National live with it.

And 6 figure admin office staff too. No way should we be paying that when we have many thousands of pilots not making that.

I'll call it right now: The TA is going to pass in a huge way, and this DPA drive is going to fail in a similarly huge way. Hopefully Timmy finally puts up and shuts it down.

Results are in, close the polls. Enuf discussion, 80 has called it! :rolleyes::D

You may be right but I had to rattle the mods cage, a little. I do hope the membership stays engaged. The Moak doctrine and its advocates won't go away. Can one want real change at DALPA and not be a hardcore DPA advocate looking for an alternative? Union should mean peer advocacy and brotherhood (is that sexist?) not a dictatorial old boys club where membership is mandatory for funding purposes only.

Ban hammer?

If so just let me know if the eye roll emoji was what put it over the top.

Don't forget elections this fall too. I don't think Malone is running again, or several good reps. Beware the Maokists, they plot as you read this post.

There, that should incite a riot. My work here is done.

Rattle my cage? Ban hammer? For what? Nothing you wrote was inflammatory or even began to rustle any jimmies.

I was really only partially responding to your post in reality- the DPA is done, and this TA is going to pass in a huge way. Just calling it as I see it.

I agree with you in regard to the elections this fall. We have to stay engaged and keep/put the right people in positions.

You seemed in the mood, I'll try harder. :D

My jimmies are ready to be rustled. :D

Irony..................

What's the over/under on 'nope'? He has a vendetta to settle.

Get a room fellas!:)

Denny

LOL in which direction?

That you suggest union employees are paid too much.

That's what I thought you meant.

Yes, I vehemently object to office admin making 6 figured, paid by US, when we have many, many thousands of airline pilots still making a third or less than that.

There is zero justification for that. None.

I'm not saying office admin should work 18 hours a day with no bathroom breaks for minimum wage and obamacare. But let's not get too Bolshevik about it either. I'm fine with office admin making 6 figures paid for by us...just so long as all airline pilots represented by us make an appropriate level *above* that commensurate with the staggering disparity in education, experience, skill, liability and responsibility involved.

ALPA should not be paying office admin 6 figures in light of the many thousands of pilots it represents. Period.

Trading unions is just exchanging one pile of crap for another pile of crap

A lot of truth there...at least in some cases it will save you half of your current dues bill.

Pilots without a union are doing so much better...:rolleyes:

Delta/American/United
 

Maybe its time to form a new Legacy union

.... or join the one we already have.

Not true. "Those cuts" at American before our Chapter 11 were no where near (think half in the % pay cut department) those taken at DAL in bankruptcy. What it turned out to be is the catalyst to depress AA pilot pay for over a decade only to end up in bankruptcy anyway. Were it not for the leverage the USAir deal gave them, they might well have suffered another decade of industry bottom feeding. Even so, their current situation makes for poor evidence that the AA pilots made smart moves.

Maybe it was a smart move, I'm just not convinced for whom. None of this matters where ALPA is concerned since AA pilots belong with us and would make us all stronger. THAT would be a smart move.

However, AA also never had C2K rates like Delta and United so their cuts were starting from a much smaller number. I seem to recall that AA mgmt offered "Delta C2K plus a dollar" rates around August of 2001 and APA rejected that and then 9/11 happened...

You need to go back and review the pay rates at the time. AMR never got on the big pay raise bandwagon before 911 and then took cuts soon after. At Delta we got a large raise immediately before 911 and then 4% raises for the next 3 years. The difference in cash flow on just pilot costs was huge.

This is true however, the deal that AA pilots agreed to in order to avoid bankruptcy in 2003 (which is what I thought you were referring to) did not solve AA's cost problems which lingered for years keeping their pilots at/near the bottom of their competitive set in pay. Meanwhile, even after the pillaging or our contract in BR, we recovered at a fast clip and sit today in a much better position overall. I think if you run the numbers, the evidence is scant that they made the 'smart move.' I could be wrong.

Again, the point is, they made mistakes, we made mistakes, we're all human but there is no question that we would be stronger together.