I guess it's unavoidable that APC will get swamped again. I think it's absolutely fine to want your opinion heard, but against all odds, this venue has kept (most of the time) a decent tone, and I hate to lose it again. Some think it's because people hide behind anonymous screen names, but I note that works both ways, so I don't think that's it. I think it's because lurkers can't be hunted down for sport.

I don't know what ALPA is doing WRT APC. Several of the guys that were responsible for fighting TA1 are ALPA's response now, but perhaps that creates tensions with former allies? It's hard to tell.

I think we should try two things:
1) Keep the high road in our discussions, and
2) Expect the union people to identify themselves as such, as well as other lobbyists with a special-interest.

I apologize for my own errors WRT #1.

As a long-time observer of the MEC, I also have some views on MEC politics, and I'm sure I'm not alone. We'll need to discuss upcoming elections in some councils. To the extent possible, I think we should try to differentiate discussions about the TA, from discussions about candidates. This TA does create some interesting leverage, i.e. the VB/TDY, so it won't always be possible to separate the discussions. But we should try.




From a friend on Chit-Chat:

DALPA has enlisted a team of social media monitors to control the message in a coordinated attempt to insure passage of this TA. For those of you who only post on ChitChat, I would strongly encourage you to open a Facebook account and join the conversation there. You will see many familiar names posting messages in their usual manner and unmistakable persona. And there are many unfamiliar names you don't see here pushing this TA hard over there. You can keep your personal info confidential, limit the people who have access to your information, and only join in the groups you choose. You don't have to post any pictures of yourself or your family to participate or give any sensitive info. The format is very different and can seem more difficult to follow, but it's important to make the effort outside of ChitChat to make your voices heard. Hopefully someone more internet savvy can walk those interested though the sign up process and help ChitChat members engage on Facebook to counter the message DALPA is promoting. Airline Pilot Central is another website that allows members to remain anonymous. You can view other's posts there without having to become a member, but you cannot post your own thoughts without joining. Some of the frequent posters on ChitChat are actually moderators over there and it frequently becomes an echo chamber for management trolls who are able to remain anonymous but present themselves as line pilots. There is a small group of posters there that dominate the conversation on APC and most are very management friendly. I suspect that many are actually members of management or hired by management to carry the message. It doesn't take a lot of courage to post bravado under a pseudonym when you know you don't have to take responsibility for it. Lots of cowards on APC. My point here is ChitChat is dominated by a group that is strongly opposed to the TA. Most of us get it and agree. If you want your voice heard by others and hear what others are thinking, join Facebook and engage in the groups specific to Delta pilots. Ask someone here for advice on how to join if you need to, but limiting your arguments to this one site is ignoring another real fight taking place on FB that DALPA is pushing hard. If you don't believe that, ask yourself why the same guy that started ChitChat is steering guys to DALPA's answer men on FB. They want you to listen, not be heard. Control the message.

 

Chit chat sucks. It's the same twelve losers moaning about how awful their lives have become since they went to work for DAL.

 

That's putting it mildly. What's worse is they think their keyboard warrior techniques actually sway minds.

 

Cool, Clamp and I are Management Trolls! My mother always said I would amount to something eventually.

The OP of that post on Chit Chat (CC) obviously has an agenda and does not know of what he speaks.

Any long time posters know that Clamp and I, the only two current DAL moderators, were both solidly against TA-1. This was obviously before we we were awarded our Troll promotions.

With that said we are both moderators and often have to play umpire. In this role we have been accused of bring biased by both sides so we must be doing OK.

CC which started out with great intentions has devolved into a echo chamber in which any poster that strays out of the CC mainstream is instantly gang tackled and then tar and feathered for good measure.

I have said it before but this merits repeating: The "No" crowd is getting desperate. So much so that they now resemble the mirror image of the "Yes" crowd on TA-1.

The "No" at all costs crowd insists that the growing groundswell of support for this TA is an illusion being perpetrated by a few DALPA folks in cahoots with management. It can not possible be a true reflection of Pilot sentiment.

My prediction: December 1st will be a sad day on Chit Chat.

Finally, I love how they try to portay anonymous discussion as cowardly. If a post is logical, well reasoned and makes sense it really doesn't matter who it came from - it will stand on its merits, but alas we can not say the same for the insults which fly unfetterd on CC.

Nothing good comes from anonymous writings - I think I read that in the Federalist papers.

Scoop

 

This made my day. Love it!

 

Long time lurker, yet minimalist poster here on APC. Was a NO voter on TA-1.

When I ask those that I fly with (more so in the bar in NRT) about this TA and about Web Forums, my response rate currently runs about 95% with "This TA is fine even though I don't like everything about it", and "The forums are too negative, so I don't read them."

I'm a Yes voter on this TA, but like the remaining 5% of those I ask, I read APC to see if I've missed something. I do learn some specific things from time to time that I didn't have a firm grasp on previously, but seeing the CC post here about 'trolls' and such elicited a desire to back up Scoop (even though I've no idea who he is) on the attempted hysteria of the "No" crowd.

Kudos to Scoop and Clamp for bringing moderation to an anonymous forum, and hopefully the postings here can be full truths, not partial, and without personal attacks despite disagreements.

 

Even this place used to be better. Information that came from here was pretty good. For awhile. But after awhile, you too will get sucked into the vortex of simian feces flinging. Trust me on this. Run away while you still can.

 

I would say that there were a few extremists on the other side of the CC argument as well; not just the DPA "no" guys, who at least had the decency to remove themselves. I had enough of it as well, and removed myself.

Otherwise, agreed with all, except "the TA is fine even though I don't like everything about it." I would say that I am leaning to a meager yes, and only because the pay gains may not be worth losing--kind of like voting for Hillary just to vote against Trump or voting for Trump just because the other party is Hillary.

Still digesting, and what if-ing.

 

The failures of TA1 has been addressed along with giving us a substantial pay raise - and it's driving the ChitChat crowd crazy.

They can't stand that people left ChitChat and that they are being ignored in the echo chamber. Even former no voters, now yes, have left ChitChat because they were being attacked. I do see a lot of the extremely negative Chit Chat crowd now on FB and as shrill as ever attempting to be heard. Maybe the moderators will control them on FB but one of them is a hard core DPA supporter so I doubt her ability to moderate. We'll see.

FB is getting "swamped" but the negative crowd is partly being ignored. The majority of people know this is a good deal that will pass and just don't want to waste their time debating.

I did ask one hard core person, "What kind of pay raise would get you to ever vote yes?" They said there was no pay raise, even at 100%, that would ever make them vote yes because they hated ALPA so much.

That's the kind of mindset many of the ChitChat crowd have.

 

Concur with your assessment, ERflyer. Each of us reach our decisions on issues based on our personal priorities and preferences. Each of us has an ego that needs to feel it's respected.

I think most of us understand that our colleagues can reach a different decision and remain a good person. Some of us can't.

80 and Scoop have done a good job of herding the cats on this section. The few fanatics ["Can't change their mind...and won't change the subject"] here are known, so their ability to influence is negligible.