Endeavor policy on FAR 117 extensions
 

Just trying to do some comparisons, but how does Endeavor treat FAR 117 extensions?

-How often do you need to extend, or are asked to extend?
-If you extend, do you get anything in return?
-If you don't extend, how is pay handled?
-If you don't extend, are there any repercussions?

I have extended once in 18 months here. Was our choice, didn't seem like there was any pressure on us.

Got extended once due to WX. Less than 30 minutes, wasn't asked (not required to by FAR), it just happened.

Another time, got extended past 30 minutes, we were asked if we were ok to keep flying, said yes, continued. First flight the next day was delayed due to min rest time. No biggie. Got the required 30 hours off two days later.

These two only in the past 6 months. Nothing the previous 6 months.

- In return, you give yourself a pat on the back.
- We are paid min day of 4 hours, or actual block, whichever is better.
Don't think an extension changes that at all.
- Have never said no, but don't see it as being an issue at all.

Slight correction. We are paid SAT or better. AKA average block or better on a leg by leg basis (If you overblock compared to SAT you'll be paid actual block) with a 4 hour min day.

If you block less than SAT you'll still get paid SAT, not just your block

What if SAT is 3.5 hours?

Then the minimum day provision applies. Any time you report for duty it's a 4 hour minimum pay day.

Lets say that you do 2 flights SAT times of 1.5 and 2 hours. That will be 3.5 hours, thus the min day provision applies

Now let's add a third flight with a SAT time of 1.0. Now it's 4.5 hours pay. Let's say you underblock all the flights by 20 min each, it won't matter because you still get paid at least the SAT times.

Since JFK has entered full meltdown mode in the last couple months I have been two-hours-extended twice. But those were the first times since I have been here. None of them were the companies fault. In fact, the second time we actually called DX and they managed to move up our EDCT time. Now I am rambling.

In the end, Endeavor is pretty good about this. On the 900 at least, most of our trips that touch NYC are build to withstand some stuff going wrong.

Extensions are frequent. Not a cloud in the sky and JFK or LGA are in full meltdown mode. Plan on a extension into your day off. It's happening regularly....and if anyone on here calls bul!sh!t they are super lucky or are full of crap.

I agree. Also, I'm not sure I understand why people are bringing up the min day pay. The pay rate is still very low for a new hire at least. Although it is great that it's at a level above 4 hours, there is no incentive to fly any extra because you're relying on bonuses to compensate for making $30/hr.

You say they are frequent. How many have you taken, both of the <30 minute variety and of the >30 minute variety?

I take them all. Sorry we take them all...as long as everyone is 👌 We continue. I was just pointing out that IF you are NY based...extensions are pretty much standard ops.

NYC Extensions
 

I'm calling it! A couple of 30 minutes over 18 months. You're much more likely to loose flying than be extended. Pay protection is a wonderful thing. I'm LGA based, and the JFK experience may vary, but i've not personally experienced much of the delays there.. heard the holding instructions many times though! :mad:

LGA based and haven't experienced many delays there? Sounds like frequenting a cheap brothel without getting an STD. But hey, I guess anything's possible! :-D

Okay, compared to JFK this month LGA has been exceptionally smooth.

Everything is relative.

Yup, this past weekend was an absolute debacle in JFK... but runway 22L/4R opened this afternoon so hopefully that mess is less often for the summer. Usually when the doody hits the fan there, things just end up cancelling because the delays rapidly exceed even the 2 hour extension. Fine for line holders with pay protection, sucks big donkey nuts for reserves that find themselves working 12 hour days for 4 hours credit because they have no pay protection.

This hasn't been my experience. In JFK I've never been extended in a year. In fact, the two times we were going to be extended we got cancelled instead and sent to the hotel.

As usual though *your experience may vary*

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Endeavor pilots are saying 'THEY WERE EXTENDED'

No one is ever 'extended'; it is at the discretion of the crew. You extend yourself, the company does not extend you.

Thanks for that...

You're close... unforeseen delays (such as an ATC delay, WX enroute, etc.) do not require an extension, and therefore no PIC concurrence.

(Caveat - unless the last leg of a duty day is delayed after signing the "fit for duty" block certification. This also requires coordination with the company. (117.19)

Also, the PIC can be investigated if he refuses to accept an FDP extension. 117 provides no protection from such. http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/co...amsters357.pdf

Um what. I don't even know where to begin.

Beyond that 30 minute window, you absolutely must have both parties' concurrence.

Second point, um what. Of course the FDP extension would happen on the last leg. It certainly doesn't occur on the first leg.

Thirdly, you need to re-read that letter and comprehend it. No one is going to pressure me by threatening an 'investigation' lol.

Some of what I typed in the first one didn't some thru, not sure why. It was supposed to say unforeseen minor delays, such as a 5 minute delay due to WX or ATC delays... Some airlines try to push the under 30 minute delay on their pilots, but technically, concurrence is required. Have never flown with anyone who wasn't willing to do it.

As to the second point, if you sign the block, but then are delayed past FDP, concurrence must happen. Meaning that when you sign, you are saying you are good. But a delay after the point doesn't mean the company can force you to go.

Thirdly, I understand it just fine. Spent most of my life interpreting regs. 117 does not protect pilots from company investigations if the company deems it necessary. That is all. You are the only one who mentioned pressure and investigation in the same sentence.

More sensical, thank you. There is (behind the scenes) a lot of contention in this arena. I simply wish the Feds had never introduced the idea of 'commander's discretion'. This is highly controversial in other parts of the world that have already introduced this concept.

Slippery slope.