Originally Posted by Kforekyle (Post 1642536)

The company does not want to lose any more pilots. They know most of those downgrades would probably leave. A good move if you ask me. They need to give the other downgrades the same deal. As an Fo, If I don't see an substantial increase in pay in the next two week, I will put my two weeks in

Originally Posted by Onedayatatimee (Post 1642565)

This is just my speculation I have no facts to back it up. Feel free to add to it or tear it down.

I haven't really heard anyone mention this on here but you think there is a chance they want the first officers to quit?? Everyone seems to be in denial of what LOA 50 is designed to do. There is a couple reasons for pay protecting pilots starting around the 1200# seniority number.

I keep hearing repeatedly on this forum "if I don't get a raise soon I'm gone, or if they don't make it a fair playing field for all the pilots I'm out of here". Do the Math on the fleet numbers. They will have to many pilots after the summer flying. They even said in the conference call by early next year down to 38 +81 airframes (1200 pilots, we have around 1900 right now). You can't tell me those 38 200's are even a safe number. They want this company to eventually be a CRJ900 operation.

The LOA 50 was designed to make sure captains (go to NYC vs displacing to FO to avoid commute to NYC). They want to make sure displaced CR2 captains going to LGA/JFK are seniority order displaced 200 captains that only need differences (3week footprint) training vs initial upgrades who need the full course (2month footprint) for the rapid expansion in NYC.

After that it's designed to make sure they have first officers to staff the LGA/JFK 900 operation as the company shrinks down and parks the CR2.

And unfortunately and rightfully so it has upset all the first officers to the point that a lot are going to quit. Which based on projected fleet numbers I feel they want more guys quitting. They don't care about staffing the 200. If to many quit they will just park the rest of the 200's. With this LOA they will have plenty of guys sticking around to fly the right seat of the 900 for $70-$85hr.

I'm speculating once again. Hope I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Past V1 (Post 1642610)

I can agree with this speculation. Although I think you missed a major point about FO's "quitting". You see, an employer would be subject to paying massive unemployment insurance premiums if they had to furlough all the pilots. If the pilots quit...then the company would not be subject to these increased premiums. Saving the company tons of money.

If their goal is to park all 200's, the cheapest course of action is to make life miserable to have FO's quit and the rate they need. Then train CA's in differences training and cash in the savings as they expand their NYC operations.

Brilliant way to reduce your workforce, profit and expand operations. I don't think there is a way to battle this. They win either way...if they hire = cheap labor...if they shrink = cheap reduction.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1642607)

Onedayatatime,

Your post is logical.

You probably over estimate Delta's ability to strategically manage an express carrier. One of my favorite lines from an article about Comair's demise was ... "Comair was a multi billion dollar company which returned outstanding value to shareholders, then Delta bought them." It is true. ASA was the most profitable airline, on a percentage basis, on Earth. Then Delta bought them.

Delta puts good Delta managers in charge. Pays nobody anything and usually retains some very poor middle management (have no idea how Endeavor runs, but this is the pattern). The express carrier is expected to operate with nearly no budget to run the thing and Delta assumes that whatever works at Delta should work at the express carrier, although the express carrier has none of the infrastructure in place to make it happen. Then Delta wrecks efficiency by overflying different carriers so that 4 CRJ's parked next to each other can't be flown by another airline's crews, or repaired by their mechanics. The 4 similar airplanes are for scheduling and maintenance, difference types all together. This drives reductions in utilization and increases in costs via the conflicting parasitic groups required to manage separate certificates.

So yes, it could be a grand plan. Or it could be (and looks like) the way things have always been done.

Originally Posted by Tinpusher007 (Post 1642678)

The problem with the above speculation is that they are pay protecting those downgraded captains until they upgrade again (according to LOA 50). So where is the savings there? Thats not even increased fo wages, its having fos on captain pay. I wouldnt be at all surprised if they wind up keeping those guys on captain pay MUCH longer than just the middle of next year. Their ability to "anticipate" has left much to be desired by their own admission. The other thing is that attrition is still coming off the top of the list; and in higher numbers than the bottom most recently. This will require hiring. If they cant hire now, they certainly wont be able to after even more fos leave.

I cant believe DL mgt would allow such a liability to their NYC operation. LGA slots are a hot commodity. If they wind up routinely cancelling flights due to staffing issues I could see other airlines making a lot of noise about it.

Originally Posted by Avroman (Post 1642687)

I'd bet my next paycheck, Delta would shift B-717's in those slots rather than let them go. They'd give up flights in MSP and DTW first.

Originally Posted by Avroman (Post 1642687)

I'd bet my next paycheck, Delta would shift B-717's in those slots rather than let them go. They'd give up flights in MSP and DTW first.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 1642708)

ExpressJet (ASA) is currently covering flying in LGA and DTW that both Endeavor and GoJets can't perform. It's month to month and has been going on for quire a while. And believe me, we can't wait for you guys to take back LGA. Rumors are an ASA CR2 base in DTW with CR2 CPA extensions in very soon.

Originally Posted by Catboatsailor (Post 1642790)

.

5)Respect We are not a subcontractor. For all intensive purposes, we are Delta employees.

Originally Posted by Yumyum (Post 1643399)

My prediction...kill this colgan mesaba pinnacle parasite .

Originally Posted by Catboatsailor (Post 1642790)

For all intensive purposes, we are Delta employees.

Originally Posted by Catboatsailor (Post 1642790)

The end result of the SSP has not matched the road show presentations. 38% rate for Conditional Job Offers turned a fantastic PR opportunity into a nightmare. Captains who have been turned down feel disrespected.

Originally Posted by Catboatsailor (Post 1643574)

Even worse, we are in-sourced labor set up to whip shaw outsourced labor. We have the economy of scale using Delta's logistical structure and our terrible concessionary contract to boot. If Delta had this set up in 95-08, they would of had the upper hand. But our pilot shortage would be even worse right now. Yes it says Delta on the Badge, KCM screws it up all the time, because of it. That's meaningless though, look at the personal running the day to day aspects of the company. It's Delta employees "brought" in to run Endeavor.

From a business standpoint standpoint I disagree, we are one company. Take the emotion out of it. Look at the money and staffing progression.

I'm not debating who is to blame, for not being hired by Delta. I'm simply stating the SSP has become a thorn in the side of the company. If Delta wants to attract qualified pilots to staff both the 200 and 900, the SSP will have to be changed. I believe it financially advantageous FOR Delta to return the flow thru. Our goal was to hire 400 pilots this year. We have less than 50 since January. Given our attrition, I predict in five years Delta will be forced to part off the 900 aircraft to multiple regionals. They will not see a return on their investment. If Envoy had approved their contract we would of seen a mass exodus of our FO's going to them. Delta got lucky. Given our current status, when Republic gets their contract to an acceptable level, you will see a higher attrition rate of our pilots to them and other regionals. Bottom line if we liquidate it will affect all Delta Mainline pilots profit sharing. That's a small amount but realize it demonstrates how closely we are tied together.

Originally Posted by Catboatsailor (Post 1643574)

Even worse, we are in-sourced labor set up to whip shaw outsourced labor. We have the economy of scale using Delta's logistical structure and our terrible concessionary contract to boot. If Delta had this set up in 95-08, they would of had the upper hand. But our pilot shortage would be even worse right now. Yes it says Delta on the Badge, KCM screws it up all the time, because of it. That's meaningless though, look at the personal running the day to day aspects of the company. It's Delta employees "brought" in to run Endeavor.

From a business standpoint standpoint I disagree, we are one company. Take the emotion out of it. Look at the money and staffing progression.

Originally Posted by Catboatsailor (Post 1643574)

Even worse, we are in-sourced labor set up to whip shaw outsourced labor. We have the economy of scale using Delta's logistical structure and our terrible concessionary contract to boot. If Delta had this set up in 95-08, they would of had the upper hand. But our pilot shortage would be even worse right now. Yes it says Delta on the Badge, KCM screws it up all the time, because of it. That's meaningless though, look at the personal running the day to day aspects of the company. It's Delta employees "brought" in to run Endeavor.

From a business standpoint standpoint I disagree, we are one company. Take the emotion out of it. Look at the money and staffing progression.

I'm not debating who is to blame, for our pilots, not being hired by Delta. I'm simply stating the SSP has become a thorn in the side of the company. If Delta wants to attract qualified pilots to staff both the 200 and 900, the SSP will have to be changed. I believe it financially advantageous FOR Delta to return the flow thru. Our goal was to hire 400 pilots this year. We have less than 50 since January. Given our attrition, I predict in five years Delta will be forced to part off the 900 aircraft to multiple regionals. They will not see a return on their investment. If Envoy had approved their contract we would of seen a mass exodus of our FO's going to them. Delta got lucky. Given our current status, when Republic gets their contract to an acceptable level, you will see a higher attrition rate of our pilots to them and other regionals. Bottom line if we liquidate it will affect all Delta Mainline pilots profit sharing. That's a small amount but realize it demonstrates how closely we are tied together.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 1642708)

ExpressJet (ASA) is currently covering flying in LGA and DTW that both Endeavor and GoJets can't perform. It's month to month and has been going on for quire a while. And believe me, we can't wait for you guys to take back LGA. Rumors are an ASA CR2 base in DTW with CR2 CPA extensions in very soon.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 1643533)

Delta will never give you S3 travel bennies back because junior Delta employees and other Connection employees will stop showing up for work. Literally.

Originally Posted by Mesabah (Post 1643740)

We are run just like Comair was, we even have the same management. We feel this is different for us, since NWA put more distance between itself, and its wholly owned carriers. However, Delta operates its wholly owned as if they were their own airplanes, but we are not their employees.

We can not let ourselves become another Comair, we have to leave emotion out of it.

Originally Posted by SmitteyB (Post 1643698)

Don't get too full of yourself, Endeavor saved ASA's behind plenty last summer when you guys yourself couldn't staff 200 flying.

Originally Posted by NVUS (Post 1643872)

Well, between SkyWest and ExpressJet, who have jumpseat priority on each other's flights ahead of every other carrier, and fly 760 aircraft to over 250 US cities...jumpseating is a pretty easy thing to do. Congrats on your win with Delta mainline.

Originally Posted by Mesabah (Post 1643740)

We are run just like Comair was, we even have the same management. We feel this is different for us, since NWA put more distance between itself, and its wholly owned carriers. However, Delta operates its wholly owned as if they were their own airplanes, but we are not their employees.

We can not let ourselves become another Comair, we have to leave emotion out of it.

Originally Posted by jethikoki (Post 1644258)

Just get the McCaskill Bond Amendment for regional pilots as mainline says they want to take the flying back.