2 month flow hiatus
 

This is from the AA forum:

"Calls are going out for the 7 Nov new hire class. Most of the 28-29 Jun interview group just received invites for this class. According to the AA Pilot Recruitment team, this is the next class after the 5 Sep class. They said that the delay was due to training being backed up."

No official announcement from the company or union yet, but if true, everyone's flow just got bumped back 2 months.

They can't mess with the flow.

I assume by "they" you mean Envoy management, and you're right, they can't. But, AA can decide not to have classes because of a backup in the training department. No classes = no flow. Envoy management can't do anything about that.

Confirmed today. The flow is stopped for the fall. No hires at AA. What next? Maybe lesser amount of pilot flow each month. Envoy in trouble.

so the world is going to end because AA I s putting classes on hiatus?

Yes... you obviously missed the memo ;)

Well, now is as good of a time as any to make sure your apps are upto date everywhere else.

Boy, the trolls really came out of the woodwork, didn't they? The Sep 18th class will be pushed to Oct. One class in Oct, one class in Nov planned. They are still deciding on the second Nov class, and as usual, no classes in DEC.

Training Dept limitations are pushing this. The flow isn't stopping or being "messed with". AA's hiring is ebbing and flowing, like it always has. AA will not hire as many as they stated they would in 2017, which mean, not as many will flow from Envoy as they stated would happen. Status Quo.

Well, even if AA had hired as many as they said they would, Envoy still would not have flowed as many as they said. Envoy disingenuously claimed they would flow "330 plus" in 2017. The real maximum it could have been was about 275, and now that is looking more like 250 or less. In 2016, RW claimed we would flow 300+, and we flowed 254.

I completely agree that nobody is "messing with" the flow if AA just chooses not to hire. But AA choosing not to hire, or AA getting backed up in training, has always been a possibility, despite what company salesmen claim. Based on this year and last, perhaps everyone should add about 20% or more to their flow estimate. Especially since if AA can't keep up with training now, they may really have trouble when retirements increase sharply over the next few years. If best case scenario has someone going in 5 years, expect 6+. A new hire today who projects to go in 8 should more realistically expect about 9.5. It's still a guess but the salesmanship exaggerating flow times is frustrating. Flow is obviously still a great benefit, but these delays are a constant disappointment if you don't have a realistic perspective.

How is that Envoy's fault though? I'm not a company cheerleader however if AA has training backlogs it doesn't matter whether you're a street hire or flow, a delay in training is a delay in training which has the ripple effect of class dates. It's not as if Envoy has any say in how many classes or how the size of the overall AA classes per month.

We all know that Envoy will not flow more than what is required. Why get bent all out of shape when AA has their own backlog?

It's not Envoy's fault at all. But it makes the company cheerleaders and recruiters look even more greasy and dishonest than before - the flow can stop, as it is doing next month, and getting to AA can be delayed, and every lost class can ultimately cost one tens of thousands of dollars down the road.

How is it deceptive though? That's how flow works, if AA isn't hiring then they're simply not hiring (even if only for temporary reasons).

That certainly is how flow works and I'm not denying that, but the recruiters or company won't tell you that. The way they are approaching it is that it is a guarantee and won't stop for any reason - and that is disingenuous. Flow is an absolutely wonderful thing, but buyer beware, because that projected date could be quite different than reality.

I get their point here. The recruiters and the projections they use don't really point out that '**** happens'. If someone was living and dying on the 'you will flow on x date' line, they'd feel stiffed. However, I am with you. If you do your homework, you know this is part of the deal. And really, you shouldn't be making career decisions without doing your homework. And yes, all the more reason to not depend on flow.

Recruiters shouldn't need to tell you that, it's obvious.

For sure, and the onus is certainly on the new hires to do their research - but you must have missed the recruiters on this board - most of which were banned a few months ago for their aggressive tactics. Their incorrect flow projections and disregard of the QOL life issues were used car salesman-esque. They're on another board now.

If anyone goes to a company based on what a recruiter tells them, more fool them.

My original point was there is deception and omission going on By recruitment. We are in agreement on your last post.

There is no omission though, it just doesn't need to be said, it 's obvious. Simple math, 25x0=0

So when a recruiter tells a new hire "you will flow in 5.5 years" (when flow time is projected to actually be 7.5 years plus) that's not a slimy thing to do?

The recruitment department isn't saying 5.5 years. That was the old number with the 2.5 year upgrade announcement. Recruitment has increased the flow projection with the increased hiring every month.
I like how everyone called the recruiters disingenuous and liars when they announced 2.5 year upgrades. Now it's soon to be less than a year and you now attack the flow projection.
The recruitment department does not sell the flow like you say. They do not say it is a guarantee. They tell the potential new hires that if AA stops hiring than the flow stops.
Get your facts straight before defaming an entire department.

What are they calling the flow time? Because the last flow time projection I saw was from a recruiter over on Talk Airline in the last two weeks, calling it 5.5 years. Maybe the company needs to get ahold of these recruiters and reign them in a little bit.

The upgrade time is vastly shorter than anyone thought it would be. I 100% give the company credit on that front.

Oh, talkairline..so it must be true. If Eagle Lounge is the internet's Fox News talkairline is Breitbart.

I shouldn't have to point this out but I will anyway. I seriously doubt any actual recruiter posts on any message board. You guys go bananas anytime someone posts anything positive, and that person is immediately labeled as a "recruiter" when in reality they most likely are not.

Which, you know...whatever. But it becomes a problem when we witness your multiple posts in this thread. You are defaming and slandering an entire department of hardworking people ( co-workers of yours, no less ) based on false information others push forward on message boards. A group of knuckleheads start calling anonymous online posters "recruiters" and the rest of you believe they are, in actuality recruiters. That's bad, man. Get a grip on reality.

You must be a recruiter... it's clear as day. Your a company stooge... Yerrr ah Intern at the least!

[emoji6]

Thank you for the well thought out response. No sarcasm. The same characters over there used to be on this board but got banned. Also, posters on the complete opposite end of the spectrum were banned, as well. So I guess there are a lot of former Fox News and MSNBC posters over at TA.

The recruiting department does a great job, evidenced by the class sizes that have never before been seen here at ENY. I don't want to take that department down and I retract my statements saying recruiters were planting inaccurate information, I'm happy to eat crow on that - who knows who the jokers are on these boards.

There are plenty of good things happening at Envoy, including unprecedented movement - I would say anyone at this airline a year ago would have staged an intervention for someone saying there would be a four month upgrade award. But here we are, and I only want good things to keep happening here.

I will point to ORDinary's post, however, and say that his facts are completely correct - those flow numbers were claimed in numerous company communications. This is what I should have directed my posts towards, and not blamed the posters on APC or TA - 300+ in 2016, and 330+ in 2017. We know the 2016 number did not happen, and it appears that 2017 will fall well short, as well. We all have a vested interest in the flow trucking along as fast as it can, and even a month delay will end up costing one tens of thousands of dollars.

That's like saying delaying buying the lottery ticket will cost you tens of thousands of dollars down the line. Nobody knows when they will flow. There could be another world wide meltdown or who knows what. Just relax and don't worry about it.

Guys if you are coming to this thread a little late and don't want to go back and reread the whole thread here is where to start and end. Most everything else said on here is just white noise and dick measuring.

If flow is being delayed for AA training backlog God forbid if anything with the world market happens.......the flow is nice having but as it is Being shown it is worthless to most here. You have a better chance doing job fairs and getting hired at a competitor then flowing to AA anytime soon.

And anyone is free to do so at any time. The flow is insurance.

When is your Delta interview scheduled?

Maybe I wasn't clear about my opinion. Even if AA had no backlog, we would have fallen well short of 330+. The 330+ claim, made by Envoy management, was dishonest. When AA training backlogs happen, it adds to the frustration begun by their dishonesty. I am just trying to advocate that people temper their expectations not only because of potential AA training backlogs (which are not Envoy's fault, obviously, but which will likely happen every year), but also from Envoy's claims.

Also I am not sure recommending people temper their expectations is the same thing as getting bent out of shape. If you would like to see examples of people getting bent out of shape, take a look back at all of the company apologists denouncing anyone who didn't believe the company's flow claims when they were made.

Literally yesterday I saw a sponsored post on this website Envoy that stated, as if it were fact, that a new hire will flow to AA in 6 years. That is dishonest.

Edit: Just saw it now: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...8E0NA&prx_ro=p

Why is it dishonest? Because you say so? You have no idea of the inner workings at Envoy or AAG. You are going to flow to AA. Why are you so bitter?

Here we go....

Bingo!! LOL. They told me 2-3 years... I bounced after 6. Would have been 16....

It's dishonest. Even a recruiter said they know the flow is going to increase because of the massive amounts of new hires.

The recruiting departments projections also don't factor in outside attrition, which so far has been steady and, in my opinion, is only going to increase. I think when slowdowns or hiccups occur for just a month or two you see a lot of frustration because the guys within a year of flowing have been waiting a very long time and haven't had it very easy at Envoy over the past 5 years.

Not defending anyone here, however, when you have said online persona saying they are on SA in the recruiting dept and they are promoting the gibberish and constantly defend the language they and mgmt are spewing it is hard to not call BS

2 month flow hiatus
 

Read beyond the bold, large font headliner of the Ad. You will all see the last paragraph state:

"A new Envoy pilot hired today is projected to upgrade to Captain in about one year and flow to American in about six years, which is the fastest of any regional. By the end of 2017, Envoy will have successfully placed nearly 1,300 pilots with American, representing almost 65% of all new hires since 2010."

Obviously it is just my opinion that it is dishonest. The math doesn't add up and some people in our management have a history of dishonesty. The 330+ claim was dishonest too. As was your claim for everyone to "count on" 40/month flow beginning in January. It is hilariously ironic that you of all people would jump into action to defend someone's honesty in flow estimates.

Calling out your lies doesn't mean I am bitter.

Overall it is a pretty good ad. I think people should pick envoy over other regionals. But they are not projected to flow in 6 years, unless the contract changes.