company does not appreciate its pilot
 

In today's email the company said the following:
"Key to fleet growth is having the pilots to staff the cockpit – and pilot hiring has become extremely competitive in recent years. Envoy has successfully met our staffing goals by offering a highly attractive career path to aspiring pilots – with competitive pay, convenient bases and generous commuting policy, quick upgrade to Captain and a guaranteed path to fly for American Airlines."

Unfortunately they still don't see we don't have an industry leading contract. Our reserve system is one of the worst in the industry. The flow is being violated every month. I don't want to be part of a company where they put our careers in jeopardy in order to grow. I would like to the union to do a bit more as well.



Enssayons

When I read that it kind of ****ed me off too. They are limiting flow against the intent of the contract while trying to grow. Meanwhile we are paid much less than Endeavor, with worse work rules / QOL and they think that is perfectly acceptable as long as classes are full. I hope the ALPA doesn't agree to extend the bonuses and instead insists on real improvements.

That's how I felt too. Unfortunately our retention bonuses are also ending here too. I hope alpa comes trough with some improvements. I emailed them a few times and what I see to get is "we are trying" every time. Not acceptable.



Enssayons

What would you specifically like them to do? It takes two to tango and the company doesn't seem to wanna dance.

Bigtime209 if the company doesn't want to dance then we should just stop the party. Alpa controls the switch to the lights.



Enssayons

They won’t do that. Many of them have their own personal interests that hinder any action they could take against the company except maybe calling Envoy a “bad airline” to the pilot group. Anything else, Envoy can just cry foul and sue ALPA for causing damage to the airline.


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So from what you're saying many of us are stuck with a poor representation at Alpa? This is unacceptable. Not trying to be vulgar here but we need to STOP bending over.



Enssayons

Have you volunteered to be part of the negotiating committee?

In the process as we speak.


Enssayons

The unfortunate reality at “eagle” is that none of this should come as a surprise to anyone who came here. We had absolutely no representation when management forcefully closed MIA and NY, and our union was nowhere to be found to protect any pilots that were affected. ALPA did nothing other than to send us emails to fill out job applications with companies that were actively hiring.

“Eagle” has metered flow in the past and I’m sure they will again. Even as a wholly owned they have to meet or exceed the quota at cost or less set by Doug and they will not allow flights to be cancelled due to lack of pilots because of flow. Contract violations have always been par for the course. Keep the flow in your back pocket and update your apps regularly.

Congratulations. Looks like management has effectively “Envoyed” the flow.

In 3 to 4 years no one will need the flow anymore. If you are a captain with 1,000 hours PIC 121 you will go to a legacy way faster than 3 or 4 years if you have a degree and no skeletons in your closet.

Until the union (association) start utilizing professional negotiators, experienced in aviation labor contract negotiations, we will continue to wallow in our "situation."

I've heard this for years.....

Darn right the company doesn't appreciate the pilots. You fellas see the snazzy t-shirts all the FAs got? Where are ours? I want a gaudy looking E 175 splayed across my breasts with "Envoy" written over the nipple.

Last time you heard it the Age 65 rule was passed. “Times have changed,” the “world has changed.”

Just a gawker here, but that sentiment is just sour grapes and is heard at just about every ALPA airline at some point. The reality is each represented pilot has to know the contract, enforce the contract, and not give an inch every single day if you're going to move the ball forward.

ALPA has plenty of resources to get competent pilots to the table and arm them with deep knowledge to make real CBA gains. Regional contracts are especially difficult given a somewhat transient labor pipeline, young CBAs, and a fair share of pilots working in their first union shop. It's hard to get and stay unified, but we're pulling for ya.

American has regional pilots flying pax for 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of a mainline pilot. Why would they want to cannibalize that? Mainline is fully agreeable to limiting flow. What are the actual numbers of AA new hires from Envoy vs other sources. That’s how you see if it’s really flow or I’d its just smoke.

2017 numbers
263 Envoy flow
45 PDT flow
52 PSA flow
225 Street hires with military training
60 Street hires with civilian training

I didn't realize how sad the PSA flow really was, PDT is almost at the same number with a much smaller pilot group. Almost feel bad for PSA pilots and then i remember 2013.

And don’t forget the union email to the company saying they want CRJs and eagle pilots to come with it.

Yeah, well they're flowing guys right now hired in 2011ish while we're flowing guys hired in 2006. It'll be years before we catch up.

How I've heard it we screwed ourselves during the Flow talks. Our guy wanted to leave early and signed the first offer contract while ENY and PDT came back the next day and got the second offer.

Please put in your sig you work for psa. Psa planned on growing balls to the wall. You can’t have that and high flow. You can’t have street captains and 5 year flow. Just look at Envoy

Proof of this? Hard to believe.

Ask your ALPA leadership

Well that may be how your flow talks worked. Ours was they offered the first 30 every month and 50% for the list and we said no. Then our experts negotiators at ALPA managed to bring that down to 25 and 15 and whatever the ration for new hires is.

We should have voted no on that one too. Management knew you were sweating

2007-2008 right now according to a pilot still over there.

This. For those that complain about the “intent” of the flow realize that any decent attorney would not have let that soft language into the “contract”. INAL but when I read it I thought “why would they ever do more than 25?” Good faith has a very strict deffinition in the law, which this clause doesn’t violate. The entire document is rife with undefined terms (operational necessity) and toothless clauses. Pilots are great at flying, **** at producing enforceable contracts. Lawyer up ALPA.

They should pull some of our dues and hire a professional negotiator/attorney... just like the company does. They’ve got Connor McGregor and we’ve got some dudes that took a weekend seminar at a McDojo. That’s probably why it doesn’t seem to work out.

Agreed, not to mention the fact that all the senior(ish) guys that have corporate history/knowledge are on the way out. In the meantime consolidating all the current LOA’s into a single document that reads side by side with the contract would be helpful, for someone new to the company it takes literally hours to find answers to something in the LOA’s by which time you may have already missed the boat with the desired outcome.