If by "walked away" you mean fired, then yes you most certainly walked away, while crying if memory serves. I truly hope you enjoy your job at Allegiant, its likely as far as your career will every go in this industry.

I agree with you fully. The point is, if you love flying, it's very hard to find satisfaction sitting in a cubicle. Not that you should take whatever scraps are thrown at you.

You're missing the point of why I wrote this post. It had nothing to do with me. Yes, I found it pertinent to add a bit of my personal history at the beginning, but you are sorely mistaken if you believe that these are my sentiments, and only mine.

You assume that I had no work experience in the field prior to college. You assume that you're telling me something I don't know.
You are not. This has been a carefully calculated decision. I don't know you, but if you think you know me after reading a couple paragraphs about me, you're mistaken.

To those of you saying that I'm a "whiner:" I am not trying to complain. I'm trying to shed light on what is going on at Envoy. If anything, this is going to help you guys, as less people will be recruited. When recruitment dwindles, you will receive your beloved increase in pay.

Until then, I have no idea why some of you feel like taking your frustrations with the industry out on me.

Please. Either refute my points, add to the discussion, or move along. Attacking me as a person is not solving anything.

except that everything is getting better. if he doesn't like envoy he should indeed find another better paying job with better QoL if he likes flying. but no, he's been through 3 regionals, so like I said it's better if he just stays out of the industry, because he will never be happy looking for the perfect regional job that frankly doesn't exist.

I do agree that envoy isn't the best. but in my opinion envoy is very reactionary. once hiring slows down then yes they'll change.

if you don't want this to be about you, don't add any of your personal history, period. because frankly, you do bring up a lot of good points but your entire post comes off as whining about your life.

I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Unfortunately, you can't take this to law. See Point #8 about the RLA and System Board of Adjustment. It's an unfortunate reality about the transportation industry.

Your last point is true. I have no true passion for 121 Flying. I would much prefer to keep it in the world of GA and Flight Instruct on the weekends. Maybe take the wife for a $100 burger every now and then. But the 121 world? It's not for me. I'm looking for a regional that will stay true to what they put on paper. In this day and age, that just doesn't exist.

Your first sentence though. I'm gonna need you to back that up with some evidence.

I merely did that for those that may be in a similar position. Either career changes, or those getting out of college. But let's be honest: pilots love talking about themselves.

Thank you, and thank you to those that wish me success elsewhere.

What is getting better? Vacation? Pay? Flow? Schedules? Days off? I can't think of anything.

Going back three years ago:
Commuter hotels
Retention bonuses
High starting salary for FOs
Short upgrade
2 bases returned

There are more but this list covers the big ones that affects the entire group in a “better” way.

If it helps you sleep at night to indulge in your fantasy above, by all means knock yourself out.

What's important is that I am no longer at the dirtbag company known as envoy. Like you and your recruiter salesmen like to say here, the legacy floodgates are about to be thrown wide open. I'm thinking my Bus PIC is the same or better than your regional jet PIC.

Hope you enjoy your stay at envoy waiting for that imploding flow. Looks like your wait is going to be quite a few years.

yeah, this is what i meant to everyone asking

If you were terminated, I wonder if AA considers you rehireable?

And to original poster. Some gripes were a little overstated but I don't blame you one bit for looking to better your life in or out of aviation. Do what's best for you! Everything you said is a complaint from many here so I don't know why there was so much backlash.

I resigned with two weeks notice and am rehireable. It's a tactic by SheepDogg and his recruiting buddies to deflect from my posts which usually point out the recruiting lies and inconsistencies they put out.

Here is a simple point for potential NEW HIRES to consider. If you live in DFW and are willing to wait 6 months to a year in LGA to get back to DFW- I say come to Envoy or Spirit. Once you get back to DFW you will If you will be forced to upgrade and shipped back to LGA. HA! If you don’t live in DFW and can get on with Endeavor.... GO TO ENDEAVOR!!! All the other points of why not to come to Envoy by original poster are mostly valid maybe some exaggeration here and there. Flow is a easy 9 years for a new hire so that shouldn’t even be apart of your equation in coming to Envoy. 2026- 2027 new hire class at AA!!! Good Luck!

There are a lot of bitter people on these boards. damn. Oh well, better for my seniority.

I think you do have a passion for 121 flying, and are trying to convince yourself otherwise. If not, why did you try 3 different regionals? I get trying a second one to find a better situation, but if you had no passion for the job, you would have hung it up after the second try.

Then you say you are "looking for a regional that will stay true to its word, but it doesn't exist." You state that in the present as if you are still looking for a good regional. The statement also leads to the belief that if said regional were out there, you would be headed to your fourth regional instead of accounting.

Confusing statements for someone with no passion for the job.

Read Before You Come To Envoy
 

LMAO at your statement above to the man “That is as far as your career will go in this Industry.” Ok, sure. That’s not a bad position to be in. One can have a great career at Allegiant! HOME EVERY NIGHT as well as Captains earning $200K -$250K/yr take home. Do research. A lot has changed, in pay industry wide. Allegiant pays much higher than Spirit or Frontier “right now”, and that should/will change in a couple months once our ALPA brothers/Sisters at Frontier & Spirit get the Airbus parity raises they deserve. They will match or exceed industry standard.

Better than waiting 15 years for a flow to AA. Ok fine, better than waiting 9 years as a NH for a metered to minimum no interview lazy “FLOW” . We need to step out of the Group Think phenomenon. This industry is changing so fast. More promising careers possible beyond AA/DL/UPS/FedEX/SW ranks. Get out of the regionals, apply to Allegiant-JetBlue-Spirit-Frontier If you have 2yrs to 3+ yrs until no interview “flowing”, are flexible, and can live in other bases. Get your Apps out! Large growth plan & 100+ new aircraft orders (recently announced for Frontier) for example. They are far from a lateral move. It’s upward mobility. Granted they are all Airbus operators, consolidation is possible amongst the 4 carriers.

I don’t need wide-body pay. $250K/yr with good seniority and home every night lots of days off sounds like a great career to me. IIRC:
AirTran—-> Southwest. VirginAmerica—-> Alaska.

Allegiant and LLC/ULLC may be subpar careers to you. Truth is, any of them is better than a Regional Airline (SKYWEST, 5 WOs, TSA Holdings), any of them offers a great career now, or at-least will be, thanks to consolidation and business model changes at 121 Mainline, Cargo, LLC, ULLC operators.

Fair enough, I will restate. In my experience, I haven't seen them come anywhere near terminating someone for a couple sick calls. I still hold out that there may have been other circumstances involved. I could be wrong though and just got lucky. I will concede that my statement is limited to my experience only.

Best of luck to you, I know this industry can be tough and it breaks people at times. It really shouldn't be this difficult, I cant think of another field that requires its workers to be so defensive on every single point of employment.

Envoy isn't perfect, but they have treated me pretty well, so who knows. However, I came here with the flow as an "oh ****" button of sorts and never intended to make it my default path out of the regionals, so perhaps I view things with a different set of lenses.

I would have zero issue going to work for Allegiant, Sprit or Frontier especially after they get the contract worked out. Smaller list to climb and I suspect more movement. I find little difference in spendable income from someone making mid-career pay at Allegiant in comparison to mid career pay at AA, plus they prob have a much better QOL.

Anyway, good luck to you and yours, I hope you find your way in whatever path you choose. Pilots tend to be the worst to their own kind, which to this day never ceases to amaze me and I feel holds us back far more than it pushes us forward.

Thanks for the post. Looks like I dogged a bullet with Envoy.

I didn't see anything wrong with his delivery. By this forum's standards, it was a really well written organized post. Didn't come across whiny at all, again by Regional pilot standards.

You mean like it should have always been? You are giving the airlines a break for taking advantage of the Recession by cutting labor costs while making record profits. Now that things are getting back to what they should have been, you considered it better?? You're like one of those Skywest pilots who just voted yes to a contract with little to no raise.

Things are just starting to get back to a respectable level, but we have a long way to go before this community is truly compensated for what they are worth to the national economy.

I just answered a question. To say there have not been improvements over the last three years is dishonest. When I started here, first year pay was $22/hr with none of the aforementioned improvements that we now have.

See bold...

Things have definitely improved from a few years ago, but we still have a long way to. Things that still need to happen:

-Roll in bonuses to permanent pay rates for FOs and raise CA pay to be on par with EDV.

-Return vacation accrual to the way it was pre-2014 TA. It's absolutely absurd that a pilot should have to wait until they're on pay step 8 to see more than 2 weeks of vacation.

-Address QOL issues ranging from poor schedules, an antiquated RSV system, etc...

-Quit trying to achieve this overly ambitious growth plan at the pilots' expense of metered flow and QOL hits (staffing shortfalls, which equal no POs/PVDs, JMs, denial of RSV swaps, etc...). I understand that the desire is to be back to our old size, but it shouldn't be at our expense. Especially since it was corporate greed that ran off 1500+ of our pilots in the first place.

I’d venture to say the ones “happy” about the “improvements” here have less than 3 years on property.

The people on here saying how they love flying so much are the ones ruining it for everyone. Those people are the ones willing to get paid ******* money because “hey at least I’m flying an airplane for a living”. It is possible to love flying but also want to get paid accordingly and have good QOL. The OP may or may not find that it’s better in the coroporate world but at least he’s willing to try to get a better life for himself. Things are better than they were but they still have a long ways to go. I agree with most of the OP’s post but I disagree about non rev travel and JM’s. Everybody has a different experience though.

If you went to Allagiant 2 years ago that means you were fired from a job or you had no other options due to circumstances like miscalculations, maybe a lateral regional move not working out and you had to get out. Either way you didn’t have a choice. So don’t make it seem like you know what you’re talking about. 2 years ago, allegiant only hired rejects, convicts and dui cases, glad you got lucky tho...

And the cold hard truth is that he would've flowed to AA well before he'll actually see the cockpit of a legacy aircraft. He's obviously still bitter about that fact.

I mean, I wouldn't discount the fact that he's sitting left seat at Allegiant. Doing rough math he's making $160k a year right now which I'd rather have than making half that at any regional waiting for my number to get called for the flow.

I'm not an Envoy employee but If Allegiant called I would take the opportunity versus waiting to get my number called.

where did original poster go ?

he signed up on 01-02-18, created and posted only to this thread, and disappeared.

uncredible

back to regular programming.

Reminder to the f ignorant and stupid: Yes, Envoy is a regional.

Reminder #2- Regional QOL and pay is not the same as mainline/major QOL.

Common APC comments about regionals in general from whiners and crybabies and "me generation"

1. My regional sucks
2. They overwork me
3. Pay sucks
4. Dispatch/Ops hates Pilots
5. Commuting sucks
6. the check airman all suck
7. management sucks
8. my regional sucks, how about your regional
9. any rumor to instant Captain upgrades. I can't wait 1 year
10. pay sucks
11. new ATP rule sucks
12. the CEO's is over focused on making money
13. regionals suck
14. am I qualified for Delta
15. wow I fly too much, this is BS
16. they expect us to fly
17. we are treated like employees of some big mammoth company who doesn't care how we feel
18. this place sucks
19. if you can pull it off, skip this stage and go direct Delta, Fedex
20. regional to corporate ? thoughts ?
21. why do I need a degree, I am cutting my teeth now, that is BS and sucks
22. I don't suck
23. military dudes suck
24. everybody sucks
25. (hired at XYZ major then....) our pay is lower than ABC Major pay, we suck.
    
    cycle continues until death
    

Todays regional is jet cockpit Day-1. Years ago, regional new hires flew Jetstreams, Embraer EMB 110 Bandeirantes, Metroliners, or Beech 1900's. Steam gauge cockpits and typically never got above FL 180. Forget long domestic or international trips as a regional pilot. A "long trip" was DFW-MAF in the Saab or DFW-LRD in the ATR.

today, a new regional hire is logging "jet time" (SIC, yes...) from Day-1.

but, Envoy sucks

Envoy doesn’t suck... I just want to be treated as the rest of the regional industry. I don’t think that is asking too much. Or may be it is. Either way if back in the day you were flying a metro or ATR and your buddy flying for another regional was flying a E175 you would be pi$$ed off and wanting the same. Correct?

entitled snowflake fall hard.

https://media.giphy.com/media/BNXUmpunaU0ZW/giphy.gif

Well sure, and 100 years ago people got sick and died from simple injuries, doesn't mean we dont want to continually improve upon modern medicine.

Just because things are better now doesn't equate to people wanting improvement being wrong or asking to much. By your logic, things should never change so long as they are better then the worst it had been.

However, all that said, I agree, we are in a pretty great spot as regionals go. Envoy isn't the best in terms of pay, but they are not the worst either. Overall I feel they are a good company in my limited experience. Do I think for a minute they are perfect, hell no.

ahh, someone who gets it

Your argument that one shows no credibility in a particular subject because they aren't well known is not just illogical, but just plain stupid.

I stand by my recent comment. If you want my response, then refute my points.

Astute observation. Can you point to who said it wasn't? Can you point to anything that supports the notion that all regionals should have a subpar QOL?

You have added nothing to this thread that hasn't already been said.

Did anyone say it was supposed to be the other way around? I am presenting FACTS. These are for those that wish to make the decision to come to Envoy. Potential New Hires should be afforded the ability to make an informed decision. Why rob them of that solely because a few people think of us to be "whiners?"

I never said that, but I'm glad to see that we're finally working toward a common ground.

Fact of the matter is that ALL the information - good or bad - is readily available.

The unwashed masses did not need you to come in and set the record straight.

Your post was simply a VERY long winded opinion of yours posted as fact. Just because you created numbered paragraphs does not suddenly make your post valid to all who consider working there.

Yours is but one opinion, and everyone has one.

Wouldn't it be great if it was all in one location? Problem solved.

Seeing as Envoy is still attracting new hires, I respectfully disagree.

You must not have read the people that agreed between the original post and your post.

Furthermore, the conditions need not apply to ALL pilots for them to be an applicable issue.

If you dispute what I posted as FACT, then back up your claim.

The reason my original post was so long winded is because it utilized something called evidence. Something you have absolutely no shred of, seeing as Envoy doesn't have an Airbus.

I welcome anything that the current pilot's at Envoy refute. But you can't just say "no, you're wrong," and offer no explanation whatsoever.

That's great. If you work at Envoy, I'm sure the new hires would love to hear others (but not yours) as well!


The fact of the matter is this: Few have agreed with me publicly. Many more have sent me direct messages thanking me for writing this post.

The simple fact that one person decided to stay away from Envoy means that my post served a purpose. Maybe it was small, maybe it was big. But people are reading this post. And to me, that's all that matters.

The bottom line is this: given the option to go to Envoy or another regional, I can NOT in good conscience recommend this company.

This is my opinion and I do believe that everyone is entitled to one.

Way to research your career change Zippy. I'm sure you'll be so happy counting paper clips and soap dispensers and deducting "business lunches" for John C. Executive. That will be about as exciting as a beige Chrysler K Car. Your post is about as boring as your degree and next career.

Guys!! I just got back from 2025 and here is a post from HanSoolu in the Boring Accountant Central Forums....

Read Before You Come To Ernst & Yawng

We live in a day and age where information is readily available at our fingertips, yet we’re still able to recruit people to this company based on numerous falsehoods and sometimes even complete scams. I am writing this to try to paint a more accurate picture than our recruiters at Ernst & Yawng seem to be giving our new hires.

After just under 2 years with Ernst & Yawng , I have made the decision to retire from the accounting industry altogether after 5 abysmal years. My experience at three different accounting firms has proven that this sector of accounting is not for me. People will continue to tell you that it gets better. Unfortunately, the grass is not always greener on the other side.

My Bachelor’s Degree is in Accounting. When I graduated, I had the option to continue with Accounting and work towards my CPA with one of the Big Four Accounting Firms. Instead I jumped into aviation without researching it at all and bounced between three different airlines. None of that was my fault. I left after five years to come back to this black hole of numbers, pencils, and despair.
To those of you that are thinking of joining the ranks of the “Elite” at Ernst & Yawng, I strongly urge you to think again before selling your soul to the devil (read: John C. Eeyo).

Before I go to deep into this, I ask to those that respond to please refrain from emotions. My goal is one thing: Whining about my poor choices and thin skin.

Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Come to Ernst & Yawng:

1) Sex is Nonexistent. Nothing. The women are frigid. The guys play Dungeons & Dragons
It won’t take you long at this company to discover that the “Just under 6 years to get to promoted” that the recruiters seem to be touting is a complete lie. The powers that be in management have decided they are more important than us.


I cannot stress this enough: DO NOT COME TO Ernst & Yawng FOR THE HOT GIRLS.

2) You will commute to a cubicle and eat lunch in the same cafeteria for 36 years.
This is mainly for those on the glorious 6th and 7th floor.

Because Ernst & Yawng has so many accountants transfer out, the company forces a decent group of its new hires to work 14 hour days. The recruiters will tell you that it's only during tax season, but they will regularly stop by and tell you they are going to need you to come in on Saturday....mmmmk.


If you’re going to be forced to stare at numbers all day, why not go to an accounting firm that actually cares about its employees and compensates them adequately? *cough*Arthur Andersen*cough*

2a) If you go to the 7th floor, You will be run by someone with little authority to be a manager.
The company has chosen the lowest bidder for the managers job, and that individual is our head accountant, who just so happens to be a Furry and will eventually invite you to the next Furry convention.

Because he is the lowest bidder for the job, expect him to never be in the office when you need him. Also expect him to be completely unhelpful for anything you need.

I once asked for a new stapler (for attaching paper purposes) and was told by this accounting manager that he does not have the proper permissions to give someone a stapler. The manager on the 12th floor hands staplers out to everyone that asks!


3) Pay (Especially our Absurd Bonus Structure)
We’ve all seen the compensation that some accounting firms have been advertising. Those that include Taco Tuesday and the annual Christmas bonus in their “compensation” numbers are pulling wool over your eyes. Let’s forget about that for a moment. As of the end of 2017, Ernst & Young paid a meager $64,750 per year to a first year accountant. I was planning on putting in a pool this year.

5) Expect To Be Underpaid
I decided to make this a different number even though it could have been covered in #4 because it's about pay, but I figured the more bullet points, the more it sounds like I'm intelligent and not just whining again.

6) Expect casual Friday to be taken away at any moment. They hang this over our head every month. God I hate ties.

7) Constant Depression.
If you're new to accounting, you have no idea how monotonous and boring it is.

8) The Company Will Force You to Put Cover Pages On Your TPS Reports
Management is so bad at this company that they have no regard for my feelings. I need a safe space.

This will not get better over time. The corporate culture is in desperate need of a change. Ernst & Yawng managers have a "do it or will get some other pencil pusher" mentality, which always works to the company’s favor. The company knows they won’t be penalized for their wanton and willful violations of the contract.


9) Extra Breaks Will Count Against You
Despite being told during training that you should take a break if you are tired, the company has an approach to taking extra breaks that is unparalleled within this industry. Take an extra break and you will be disciplined for it.

Don’t take my word for it. Ask every single accountant at Ernst & Yawng

You WILL fall asleep at your desk.

10) Forced Weekends
What you’ve heard around the industry is true. Ernst & Yawng is using a little known clause within its labor contract to force accountants to come in on Saturdays. Sometimes Sunday's too.


11) The Sixth Floor is Hell
Not even joking. It sucks so bad. I have to go to the 12th floor to get anything decent out of the vending machines. And you have to listen to Bethany answer the phone louder than any CSR ever. Also, Ed likes to stop by and ask personal questions about your kids.

12) Fired for Calling in Sick
Apparently they expect you to come in and work even when you're sick. They just tell you to wear a mask and "suck it up, it's tax season". If you call in during tax season, you will be fired. I guarantee it.

13) Long Sits
It's accounting. You will sit on your arse for 8-12 hours every day. Because it's accounting, and you sit at the same desk every day. All day. For 30 years.

14) My Desk Sucks


In closing, the trend that Ernst & Yawng as an accounting firm is experiencing is downward in nature. Due to the current corporate culture and management, you can expect tomorrow to be worse than today.

I welcome your response and input. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions on a personal level. I will be happy to answer them.

I'm trying to determine if you think that this is not the same at all accounting firms. Because the information I posted about Envoy does NOT apply across the board at all regionals.

Clever satire though, I will give you that.

I used to work for a big four accounting firm, and I decided to leave to be a pilot. After 2 years as a CFI, I would sooner go back there and sit at my desk job than go to Envoy.

Hey, I get it. This country is filled to the brim with sheep that shuffle with the herd to the same dull job 5, 6, or 7 days a week. I quit a desk job to do this back when first year pay at the regional airlines was 20 bucks an hour. It was the smartest decision I've ever made.

Some people aren't willing to tough it out for a few years. I did. Now I work 10 days a month and make 200k/yr.
I worked my ass off to get here. I endured more BS than your pathetic whiny post x10.

Go trudge to your office every day and pretend you won't be whining about it just like this in 5 years.

I'm gonna be skinny dipping in Bora Bora.:cool: