This attitude is the problem, and exactly the reason why nothing changes. Management knows they can take advantage of you and you'll just lie down and take it. You've been beaten into submission.

I second this. I find it funny that even SkyWest’s pilot group has been more effective in negotiations with management and they don’t even have a union. :rolleyes:

I have not been beaten into submission. I have voted no to every single concession that have faced this pilot group since 2012 (there have been several by the way). And I will 100% oppose ANY form of concessions, no matter how small, in exchange for pay raises. My attitude is not the problem. I know what this group deserves and I don't approve of anything less. My faith in this management to do the right thing is virtually non existent. That's all I'm saying.

I love how we gave concessions on the last two LOAs when we had leverage. Now with no leverage we say “no concessions.” Seems backwards

That's regional alpa for you.

If we do concessions let’s make sure the concessions are visible and affect new hires on the 175 in DFW and ORD (ie nothing that only impacts people who are on rsv)

I would agree.

175 needs to have it's QOL dropped to the level of the other fleets.

Also need to pull the MOU/LOA that allows cadets seniority.

Without negotiating in public, there is a difference between a concession, and a concessionary contract. If the pay raise increases each pilots cost by X amount, and a concession cost each pilot <X, then that still means the gain has increased the value of the contract, and should be voted on by the pilot group. I very well may still vote that down, but it is not a ‘net concession.’

We need to remember that our entire contract (beyond pay rates) has a net cost per pilot, and we absolutely should demand that the net cost be increased with the PSA rates, how much should be up to the pilot group.

Boy, AAG has done a crafty number on us. Instead of asking for Endeavor rates, everyone wants PSA rates.

FINALLY!
Someone pointed out the truth. This can't be repeated enough.

+1,000,000

So when the Union email says “under no circumstances are concessions to be discussed. Any indication that the company expects the pilots to "pay" for similar improvements will be a non-starter,” we should reinterpret that as concessions are ok as long as they are not “net concessions”?

Very fair points - I have spoken to the ALPA reps about this distinction as all negotiations are give and take. We will just have to see what happens. As I mentioned - this should ultimately be decided by the pilot group,

Once again, I don’t want to negotiate in public, but I hope all of us have calculated what our personal NPV and cash flow would look like from a raise matching PSA (or ENDV) given today verses in 3,6, or even 12 months from now, and then what it has to be to break even. I know that AAG has done that same calculation.

Minimum 20% raise across the board, no concession whether positive or negative. You want consider concessions,wait till you're at aa, give up all you want then. But here NO CONCESSIONS OF ANY KIND. Negotiate that.

You're still conceding to Endeavor at that amount by a good bit, at least at may pay step and position. And that rate was agreed to in the fall of 2017. We should be demanding more than that.

The main point that people are missing is THERE SHOULD BE NO NEGOTIATING GOING ON. THE COMOANY JUST NEEDS TO COME WITH PSA RATES, THE UNION AGRESS AND SIGNS THE DOTTED LINE.

Why are we even thinking about negotiating anything, when PSA didn't? It isn't our job to make envoy competitive, that is up to management. There should be no negotiating these pay raises. They need pilots to fly their planes....this is the price they have to pay. Management doesn't go negotiate the price of fuel they need to fly their planes, they should be able to negotiate the price they NOW need to pay pilots.

And they won’t even give us those, because cadets will come regardless to fly 175s into St Maarten

I want back pay!

Has the union put any more effort into ending bonuses? They are a big reason pay has stagnated this long.

Also agree with the sentiment of others, the contract is not open for negotiations and there is no reason to discuss concessions.

This is a chance for Envoy to raise very low wages in order to maintain steady hiring, the union should not be giving up anything.

Any pay increase should be industry leading at the time of signing.

I am with you, we want minimum AA Group 1 pay rates across the board, nothing less, also NO CONCESSIOS of any type.

PSA just raised their cadet assistance payment again..

$25,500 bonus if you're a cadet.

Edit: That's $75,500 first year pay for cadets.

Our should match/beat that. NO BONUSES.

$75,000 base pay for cadets?! Get it together, Envoy.
The money is there. No bonuses. Hard pay.

Bonuses are not needed. More than enough pilots to staff the regionals. Pilot shortage is a joke.

Mec better come a hefty pay raise across the board for all.

We honestly need to see more than what PSA was offered. If I'm making 900 more per month with their hourly rates, I'll only be making 200 more per quarter once we lose the bonuses. Big whoop $800 a year.

are you guys still filling classes?

So far. Tomorrow will only be the third new class since PSA got their raise. First one was too soon for most people to change their mind. We’ll see if tomorrow is a different story.

Here’s my bet. Envoy and “ALPA” will sign an LOU/LOA soon that starts CAs and FOs on a higher pay step. Much like the current agreement that starts new FOs on year 3 or 4 or whatever. They won’t actually increase the pay scale, they’ll instead sign a temporary agreement that creates artificial rates (all new CAs start at year 9 pay, and FOs start at year 11 pay!) This will allow them to pull the “new” pay rates whenever they want.

I know some people in recruiting. They said applications are way down since the PSA raises were announced.

GOOD. Maybe this will finally pressure our management into seeing the light.

Doubt it....

I’m sure it’s the opposite. Apps are probably way up because the masses believe we will get raises and want to get in at the beginning of the wave.

I heard applications were initially up.

I also heard we won't be getting a raise in 2019.

We don’t need a raise, we are about to have two new crew rooms. That’s enough spending by the company.

Plus an LAX base in August 😆

Meanwhile, another day goes by where PSA is compensated at a significantly higher rate than Envoy pilots.

Have a great Monday!

Let the MEC do their thing.
It's been much longer since Endeavor started being compensated as much higher rates.

It has been much longer, so shouldn’t they have been doing their thing for a while then?

Endeavor has had pay raises for almost 2 years now. Average pilot over there has made at least 60 K more than you in that time. What could you do with that?

Actually it's been over 4 years if you count their retention bonuses that were paid to ALL pilots, not just a few select groups here and there.

YES!!! Without debating in public if there are winners and losers in this LOA then I’m going to be upset again. I’m tired of all this A scale B scale bull crap we have going on. Cut the bonuses! Fix the pay scale!!


PI apparently we can’t say SS