What Should Envoy ALPA Do?
 

Playing devil's advocate here. In light of PSA's pay raises, everyone is ready to burn our local MEC to the ground. So, assuming we gave every person in an elected leadership position the boot and we elected a whole new band of brothers, how do they proceed? How does a new and improved ALPA get us everything we want? We demand that ALPA goes to management and demands pay raises and RSV improvements. Management declines. What is the course of action that ALPA should take once management doesn't want to play ball? I'm not defending the MEC, but I'd genuinely like to know how any other leadership would make changes when management doesn't want to tango. Keep in mind, ALPA national won't put up with any kind of job action such as slow downs, no OT campaigns, etc...Any ideas? Everyone wants ALPA to take a tough stance to get what we want. How do we do that?

By bringing attention to it, wherever possible give it exposure so there’s an “all eyes on us type scenario” — no one wants to be known for underpaying their pilot group or poor work rules compared to our sibling company(ies) in this case perception is reality. Right now, no company wants or should have negative attention, especially in these times of growth, bad juju ;)

Okay...I like that. More public, vocal outcry against the company. Instead of basically stark silence. Good point. Let's keep it going.

Careful, last time I spit balled a few things I thought the union should do on here I got dog piled by a half-dozen or so extremely hostile posters who felt I was sabotaging negotiations by “showing our hand.”

That said, I’m open to any lawful expression of dissatisfaction. Since the company keeps chopping lines, I’ll have nothing else to do as my year on RSV becomes a year and a half.

How about we let them meet with the company or at least tell us an update? There is no part of me that thinks that they aren’t working on a solution.

What’s the point of belonging to a union if they, national, won’t let us band together as a pilot group and use our collective power to “encourage” the company to make changes?

Everyone knows how quick the company is to knee-jerk on some bad press lately...

The main thing for me would be more vocal dissatisfaction. I just always feel like the union is running scared and never from a position of strength, perceived or otherwise.

I don’t think we should be scared of managment in this environment.

Isn’t much Alpa can do. We have a contract, soft negotiations can start next year. I think the company could hold off until then to see how recruiting is affected. 2020, Each side brings a few changes to the table to negotiate with costs supporting them. Envoy will give raises, they just want something in return. PSA gave up nothing from what I read. That is very very rare. But time will tell.

The company has said that they aren’t willing to negotiate while recruits are still showing up to class. Therefore it would make sense for us to stop begging the company to negotiate and instead attempt to “inform” potential new hires of our current situation. The company puts out propaganda to attract pilots all the time. The recruiters say everyone will flow in 5 years or less...and not a single rebuttal from the union about that being a load of hot BS. Management loves to parade around all the “new 175s” yet no effort on the union’s part to make potential pilots know that they shined jets are of no consequence to their pay rate and are potentially a negative in regards to relative seniority/QOL. The company was in desperate need for captains so it waived 45k in the faces of potential hires and the Union could have easily smeared that to death with the realities of a being DEC here with our current reserve system. Yet you heard nothing. Bottom line, stop wasting time trying to negotiate with a company who isn’t going to and start doing something that might actually address the issue of why they won’t.

I had said something to this affect a while back. The Union, ENY MEC and ALPA, could put out a resolution stating due to XY&Z that they recommend against Envoy. Spend some of that money on informational picketing and advertising.

I think that because we're governed by the railway act and we all know that we're likely not to see improvement until the company is forced to make changes, we can provide education. That's why I pushed the pay differences in a separate thread so it wouldn't get buried.

New hires really fall into two categories, fresh pilots don't understand the intricacies of our work rules and don't have anything to compare them to and DECs who are hoping they can get some PIC time who don't realize (to a certain extent) what they're getting into regarding endless reserve, and the thing I always hear, 9 year flow.

It's all about education, realistic observations, without slant.

I honestly doubt switching to APA would help us, maybe I'm wrong, but it's my opinion that folks at mainline have no idea what's going on here. That said, I think the only thing going to force their hand is recruitment numbers as the claim is with PSA and their raises.

I don't think being hostile to folks thinking about coming here is a good strategy though.

How do you get into the head of a twenty something in college who doesn't think to compare rates between regionals?

That, how hard is this, instead of the 2-year-old excuse that they can't do anything and their hands are tied.

Instead, we see communications for our union dues used for free alcohol and food, as part of the "fun" part of our dues at work.

Newsflash, I don't give a rat ass about free booze and food, do something that will at least attempt net improvements for the pilot group as a whole instead of a certain group.

And stop telling us you can't do anything ...

I am sure even a 20 something will realize how much of a $900 a month pay difference will make if pointed out.

Sending a realistic guy to crash recruitment’s presentations at ATP, etc. would help. Many will still be on the hook the minute they see that shiny 175 though.

Informational campaigns are worthwhile to inform potential new hires. However, ask yourselves how many guys you've seen wearing ALPA pins on the concourse? There's no reason for you to wear a "slick tie," as the United guys might say. Or ALPA lanyards, for that matter (sure, the company pushes wearing AA lanyards or nothing, but good luck enforcing a ban on union lanyards in court.)?

Historically, other ALPA carriers have worn unique solidarity lanyards during contract negotiations. Where is our MEC on this?

When they live in their parent's basement with no living expenses, they don't care, they want that shiny new 175. And that's not just an Envoy problem, its an industry problem.

You're forgetting one thing about union motives.

Most of them are close to flowing.
Whats the best way to ensure company doesnt start throttling the flow?
Yep. Make sure new hires are showing up, and that you dont end up in a ****list that prevents you from flowing.
That's a conflict of interest right there.

The chairman flows at the end of the year. The EA and Vice Chair are in the L10-11 group and have a while to go.

I could not agree more with you, hence I personally think we would be better off with a change in Leadership or even Union that has the interest of the pilot group as a whole in mind and not just short term goals for a few.

Sounds about right.
I personally heard an ALPA rep who flowed recently say “we dont need Endeavor rates at Envoy we need faster flow” this was around the time a grievance was settled for temp increased flow

Honest question. Would you all sell the flow for endeavor pay rates? Get rid of the flow as it is now with only a certain percentage of guarantee interviews per month with no promise of being hired but have higher pay rates.

Duh, of course not. PSA has an equivalent flow-through and just below Endeavor pay rates.

The question is how much do people value ORD and DFW bases and a lottery shot at shiny jet short reserve paradise. Is it really worth $10+/hr for 9-11 years?

What Should Envoy ALPA Do?
 

*******deleted to avoid any potential negotiations in public

I think we should stop discussing negotiation points on a forum which management can and almost certainly does frequent. 2 years ago as a newhire I used to roll my eyes at the comment I'm making now. Two years later and I've changed my tune. It's not worth discussing here, IMO.

The SNJ does have a $5K lower bonus.

Or call it $5K because you want DFW or shorter reserve. But most of the time 175s have been getting option of DFW or ORD, so call it what you want.

Yeah, because stye don't know exactly what we're thinking and saying.

They're mean as *******, but they aren't stupid.

ENY Pilots should just take a big chill pill because ultimately AAG isn't going to hamstring the hiring at 2 of their 3 WO carriers. Let SP do what he was appointed to do.

Most intelligent post yet

Then he can start with more frequent communications to the pilot group, it would go a long way.

Have him call his counterpart at PSA to get schooled.

ENY MEC communication
 

The ENY MEC just put out a communication. Check your registered ALPA email.

Once again, since this was not a “public statement” I will not repost it here.

Expect to be underwhelmed. Our union won't demand anything of worth even though Managment is now in a hard place with envoy leading the pack in the worst pay rates in the regional ranks when it will start to hurt hiring. Our union needs to make sure we emerge as the HIGHEST PAID REGIONAL.

At the risk of someone saying we “shouldn’t be negotiating in public” because management reads the forums, I think we should ask for and accept nothing less than mainline wages and work rules.

Don't forget hookers on every overnight and cockpits that smell like unicorn farts, because those things are just as likely.

Only way you're going to get that is if you finally get regional aircraft on mainline lists.

Staple Us!

You really really need to read and try and understand the railway labor act.

Industry leading pay raises would be nice but I'm an advocate for a much faster flow rate. I'm not talking shaving off 6 months off pilots flow times I'm talking about taking years off.

Why are you posting this on here. You all need to stop. Email your darn reps with your bright ideas.