Pay raises... not such a good deal.
 

Seems like we got hosed. Our fo pay is... fine now. But 15% on $66 an hour still isn't exactly industry leading. We didn't get back pay through may 15th or many of the other improvements in the AIP. Kind of seems like a raw deal, no?

So you know what the deal is?

Let's wait for the facts, then we can assess if it was a win/lose for the pilot group.

I wouldn’t say we got screwed, but I feel like we could’ve got a better deal. Let’s wait and see the details.

The initial signs are very bad. Extremely disappointed to have conceded on retro pay. Guess we’ll see what else is in there.

I would say with almost certainty Captains got screwed.

We got Piedmont pay rates. Fly a 175, the largest and heaviest RJ out there, for ERJ140 rates.

This is so far from the AIP, I almost don't believe it.

The math doesn’t work for CAs, I agree. We’re gonna be $5+/hr short of PSA if the 15% figure is reliable.

You haven't seen the AIP. Nor have you seen the new deal.
Let's see the deal, and judge it then.

And the 500 senior guys will be over PSA, if the blended vs. pay band rate rumors are true.

It's not a rumor. Read the contract.

More like $8-$10 short.

Anything on flow numbers?

The next group goes from 15 to 20 a month.

Union: "You don't want to live up to the AIP? No problem, we don't need you to. What do you want?"
Management: "Be our *****"
Union: "OK, whatever you need!"

:mad:

We should never give up anything for flow. THEY are the ones proclaiming short flow for new hires.

:mad:

Without seeing the deal, I'm not ready to make that conclusion.
What did we give up? We are talking about something no-one here has any idea of.

Let's just chill for a day and see what the facts are. You guys are popping a blood vein over speculation.

AIP

:mad:

/filler/

We gave up leverage. Once a deal is inked, you can forget about any more improvements until the contract is up. And that’s not until 2022.

Welcome to Envoy, enjoy the low pay until just before you flow. The best thing about working here is you might get out 2 months sooner!


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2022?

The only leverage we had was captain attrition and FO recruiting. If this deal isn't enough to fix those issues, then they will give us more.

Should have held our ground for AIP.

:mad:

I’m just going off what envoy published: up to 15% pay raises for captains. I hope its better. But idk why envoy would publish less than they could. If the pay raise for captains was going to be 20%, you know they’d brag about it like it was god’s gift to regional flying.

You’re right. If even one pilot is eligible for 15.1%, Envoy would claim it.

And 0.1% is still “up to” 15%. Prepare to be underwhelmed.

Exactly. Envoy has been quick to brag about things like the 175 which few new hires are awarded. They act like its the way all new hires go. I know they’d say “pay raises up to 25%” if even one pilot was getting a 25 percent raise.

That’s that way it has always been. People are just now reading the compensation section and subsequent LOA’s.

The AIP still would have paid you the B scale with the small RJ rates. How do people not understand this? What helped make up the difference in the money that you wouldn’t make compared to PSA was the sick bank payout.

If pay banding wasn’t here and people got paid based on equipment, then you would still be paid the 145 rate BECAUSE YOU WOULDNT FLY THE 175!!!!!!!!!!!!

In your world you would be paid PDT rates and fly soon to be PDT airplanes.

This is accurate without pay banding Sr captains would fly the 175 and Jr captains the 145. Pay banding makes pay based on seniority so the Sr pilots can stay put saving the company training cycles.

From what I can see, no capt got more than 12% or less than 10% but no one got 15% mgt posted

From the company release: “...with pilots to receive another scheduled contractual increase on Jan. 1, 2020.”

It’s less than a dollar raise...

It's less than 1% that we were to get.
Nothing like taking any deal.mgt offers.

“First officer pay over $50 an hour!”

Yeah, by 0.4%

This place was so good way back when I started. In the RW/PF era, this company has become an amazing marketing company selling crap pay for mini mainline jets.

Just saw Pedro was awarded Most Admired CEO of North Texas.

“Pedro consistently cons veterans and college kids into unscrupulous employment agreements that undermine the value of quality pilots all while driving profit margins higher and higher.”

That should be the opening salvo

Why did ALPA national send those analysts that spent all that time proving to the company that we had to earn more than PSA to be equal to PSA?


Just to take this ****? :mad:

Might want to crunch some more numbers, a certain always forgotten group for the last few years got 15.9%

Which group would that be.

Payband C at 6 years is 15.9% 80.94-93.80
Payband C at 7 years is 16% 82.55-95.83

In theory no one but lifers should see Pay band C 7 year CA rates according to recruiting.

Most junior Pay band C guy is a 9/2014 hire.

I was more referring to advertised flow of 6 years.

Where have these rates been posted or published? How does everyone seem to know the details already?

They haven't been published yet. You have to pick up the phone and talk to a rep to get any additional info at this point. The rates are PSA rates. BUT, they are not the PSA blended rates. So our CAs on Pay Band B will make less than PSA while CAs on Pay Band C will make a tad more. In essence, you will make less than your PSA counterpart up until your last few months at Envoy.

So you believe in the 5 year flow for all new hires?