CJO @ Kalitta & Omni
 

Hello everyone,
I am having a difficult time trying to decide what's right for me. I am 39 years old and have about 3.5 years to flow
to AA approximately. My goal has always been to work for a legacy and fly heavies but AA right now doesn't look very healthy as a company with over 35 billion in debt. I have a family but am pessimistic about the schedules of Kalitta & Omni with being gone for 2 weeks at a time etc., but when home I will be home; no crash pads and or commuting. I would like if some ex. Envoy guys can put light and share their experiences and quality of life stories here so it can make it easier to make a decision and what is right for me and my family.

You'll make more at K4 than AA, and never commute ever again.

I'd be gone yesterday.

Every place has pros and cons.
make a list of what's important to you and your family. The one with the most checked off items on your list is the winner.
have friends at kakitta and omni, they dont regret their choice.

Just 3.5 years to flow. Wow. Let me highly recommend you consider staying at Envoy. Flow to the largest major in the world, or take a job with an ACMI with an uncertain future. Have you looked at AA retirements? You are going to skyrocket up the list at AA. Take a look at AA payscales vs the carriers mentioned. AA blows them away. QOL? AA again tops the list. You won't be gone 2 to 3 weeks straight. Plus, do you want to be talking to your neighbor and having to explain where you work? If you say "pilot for American Airlines," that says it all right there.

While I am certainly not advocating AA above all else, I am a married father with kids and pets. I couldn’t nor would my family want me to be away for weeks at a time, even if it meant I would then have two off.

to each their own though so you need to come up with what is important. 3.5 years to flow is a long time and I would certainly be trying to get picked up somewhere that fits your needs prior to the flow.

I knew a few guys at both and Atlas. Most left both for United, FedEx, UPS, and Delta, but a couple are still there. Those who are still there, it fits their lifestyle (single guy, married no kids, married with kids and two sets of healthy grandparents nearby).

3.5 years is a long time. Omni and Kalitta could probably get you to other majors faster as you add more ratings and international flying to your resume. They also pay better than Envoy. As long as you have 1000 PIC at Envoy, the only other box checking that can really be done here is LCA.

Where you are at, it's a tough call. Your QOL here will get better each month as you are reaching the top part of the seniority list.

However, since you are senior to me, you should probably take the CJO. ;)

you going too hard man, this is why I cant believe a word you say or take you seriously.

I'm at Omni and love it. Right now it's highly improbable that you'd ever have it happen, but in theory you *could* get 38 days in a row. I believe Kalitta is similar. Something to think about.

Now, that said, I've never had back to back rotations, and I've had my override days used exactly once in a year. I'm averaging more like 12-14 days on per month, going to cool places, making decent money, and upgrades are currently available whenever you have the time and are up to the challenge. I couldn't be much happier and am thrilled to be here But who knows what tomorrow holds...and we *are* owned by ATSG.

Are these the guys that own Atlas and Southern as well? - That would be a concern for me.

ATSG owns ABX, Omni and ATI.

AAWW owns Atlas/Polar and Southern.

Off topic but is it possible to block/ignore a poster?

Make more at kalitta? Uh, no.

3.5 years will be a blink of the eye in this biz, stay put.

Not necessarily. Depends how long you have to flow and how long you have left until retirement. If already 55 + and several years (3 or more) until flow, probably would do better.

And the positive space from home is a good deal, especially if you would otherwise have to commute.

Is the schedule for everyone, no. But someone 55+ is likely either already divorced or has a relationship that can deal with it.

I can't wait more then 3 years for the flow honestly, a lot can happen between now and then with too many negative variables; now the decision comes to which one Omni or Kalitta. I can be a captain in 3 years at either company and make some serious coin to support my family.

Thank you

Kalitta is freight only. As I understand the only other crew member is a mechanic and or engineer. No pax unless it is a handler for animals. Something to consider.

Omni MIGHT have more variety with the pax side.

Pick your lifestyle.

I'd go Omni.

If you're set on going to an ACMI, go Omni between the two. Good variety of places they go for those DOD charters. The FAs are good folks (having worked with a couple at a previous job). The LAS-HNL scheduled stuff seems like a good deal if you can get it.

CJO @ Kalitta & Omni
 

[MENTION=92323]shinydiscoballs[/MENTION] Congrats for not waiting on the flow & applying yourself! Big deal, wise move!

———————————————————-
Which of the two:

Less likely to be sold, purchased, or sea-sawed by Bezos? (if you personally distrust AMZ’s future plays)

more likely to be sold or bought by FedEx/UPS?

Is more likely to grow?

more likely to have retirement/seniority list movement.

more likely to maintain present condition, prestige, health in 10-20years?

Pilot group most likely to be supported by owner/family/top level leadership, parent company.

best able to not only survive but thrive under smaller government/DOD budget and spending under a Democratic President in office.

Most capable historically of supporting its pilot group & families in the event of economic downturn.

_________________________________________________

Would you rather work for:

Publicly traded company with shareholders, Warrants owed or reserved for another institution, or a Privately owned, family controller company. (Which corporate structure would you prefer to work under).

Fleet type and flexibility

Crew dynamics

Culture of owners and company/companies dynamic

Stability over the past 5.

Sustainability for the next 10-20 years.

positive leadership stability over the last 5-10yrs.

positive leadership sustainability potential over the next 10-20.

————————————————————

I’ll edit to add more if I can. Hope this helps

You’ll make more money at Kalitta. You’ll rarely break guarantee at Omni. There are special programs that have a higher guarantee, but require a higher security clearance. Those pay an 80 hour guarantee. The regular guarantee is 64. Omni does pax only, no cargo at this time.

honestly, with only three years to go, I’d hold out for Delta, United, Fedex, UPS or just flow to AA. The trip variety, base selection, company size, fleet variety, travel benefits, retirement travel, and a higher earning potential including a 16% direct contribution all make life better at a Legacy than any LCC or ACMI.

the real question is can you put up with three more years at Envoy to get an even better job for the rest of your life than what you’re being offered today? We’re about the same as a decent LCC. Unless you’re over 50 or absolutely won’t make three years, I’d hold out for the Delta, United, Fedex/UPS and an AA flow.

Why can't he apply OTS from Omni? 3 years is an eternity in the regionals. FWIW K4 is not easy to get on with.

CJO @ Kalitta & Omni
 

If young enough (under 50), OP can leave Kalitta or Omni in 3 year for the “big 5” if it’s not for him.

Will be qualified, gain higher level experiences, and be quality candidate within 3years- outside of the flow & get to AA if OP really wants AA.

2021-2024 will be remarkable, everyone is and will be paying well. Will be a matter of QOL, SCHEDULE, QUALITY OF COMPANY in my opinion.

I agree with these post with two exceptions:

1) You know that ACMI is not for you AND you have no degree (or whatever other issues that might make it hard for you to get hired by a major).

or

2) You'll only be happy if you get hired at AA.

Other than those two, I see no reason to stick around at Envoy with offers there. As long as you keep up a good resume and a clean record, you're going to get hired somewhere before too long. Might as well take the money offered by the ACMIs in the mean time.

neither is Omni easy to get on with. He absolutely can apply off the street to legacies along with 14,000 other non-military pilots. He already has a legacy job in his back pocket with no interview.

if he is under 50 he will make more money at AA. He will have trip variety at AA. He will have no whipsawing at AA, whereas ATSG owns three very similar airlines. Omni & Kalitta are small operations compared to AA. He’ll have better retirement at AA. He’ll have more fleet types available at AA. Unless he’s over 50 or absolutely can not do 3 years as an Envoy CA making $100k+ then he should stay where he is. I’d say the exact same if it were Jetblue, Spirit, Frontier unless he lived in base. He’s so close to a top tier legacy job that he shouldn’t throw that away.

I’ve done both. I’ve been less than three years from flow, and I’m at Omni. If I had the choice I’d wait the 2.5 years and go to AA. Omni is a great job, and a solid career in its own right..... but it’s not a legacy. The grass is not always greener.

That all said, for a new hire... I’d never choose an AAG regional. The flow will be worthless insurance you’ll never use as street hiring will be ferocious. Flow just won’t be needed.
So, could he go do Omni & K4 for a few years and then street apply, yes. But he’d be applying for a job he technically already has. He’ll make as much as an ENY CA as an OMNI/K4 FO for the time period it takes him to flow.

Wow, some very interesting commentary. You spend a lot of time pontificating on how AA is the best but then go on to state that you would never choose an AA regional. Why? You state above that one has the flow in their back pocket. Why wouldn't a candidate go to an AA regional and do just that while applying elsewhere if they so desire? I do agree on one thing wholeheartedly that you mention and that's AA is far and away light years better than Omni.

Not quite. You need to read it again without your Kool-Aid induced buzz.

1st. He didn't say AA is the best. AA is not the best... doubtful it is even top 5. Yes it is a legacy. It is a career destination, but it is not the best. Is it better than Omni, yes... but that's not what we are talking about.

2nd. Why wouldn't a candidate go to an AA regional? Well, there's our substandard work rules, huge reserve population, inefficient and inflexible schedules, hostile management, overall poor QOL, low bottom line pay, and slow though steady advancement just for starters..

If you are open to other career destinations... you will build hours and upgrade faster at many other regionals. You'll probably make more money and have more time off at other regionals.

The question on the table is Omni/K4 vs Envoy for 3 years. The only upside to Envoy, assuming he already has 1000 hours PIC, is that AA is about 3 years away. We don't have a crystal ball, and we don't know what is going through recruiters heads. If he goes to K4, and a year later gets hired by UPS, we'll say he made a great decision. If he goes to Omni and gets hired by Delta in 4 years, we'll say he made a great decision (3 years better QOL Envoy vs Omni... lifetime Delta over AA). If he becomes an Omni lifer, then he'll be kicking himself over this decision.

This time it is you with the interesting comments. You just helped my argument 10 fold. Essentially in a nutshell you said:

It isn’t worth it to go to Omni or a similar carrier. You will regret it.

And....the flow is dropping to 3 years. The only upside to Envoy, assuming he already has 1000 hours PIC, is that AA is about 3 years away.

I guess that was brought up in the AA board meeting that you attended as you are Doug Parker’s right hand man.

This is only quoting the OP who said he was 3(.5) years from flowing, not that the flow would or ever could be 3 years for a new hire. The math would never work and that would cripple Envoy.

No, he might regret it. The only regret is if he gets stuck at Omni, which I would say is a low probability. There is a lot more potential upside with going to Omni at this point in his career than staying at Envoy. Notice I said the ONLY upside to Envoy. If he stays with Envoy and flows to AA, he'll be kicking himself if he finds out he could have been at Delta, United, FedEx, etc, if he spent some time at Omni.

It's been a few months since K4 has handed out any CJOs. Are you in a pool of some kind?

Nice try, go back and actually read the thread. He was referencing what the OP said was his flow time, not that any of us actually believe the flow for a new hire will be 3 years.

Tyrion also made it very clear that AA would only be a win if it meant he didnt have to stay at OMNI, but that virtually every other major would be better.

Omni & Kalitta are about on par with Frontier, Spirit, Jetblue. If you like home basing, positive space real tickets and keeping the air miles and hotel points and never needing a crashpad... and can work with either one 16 day long trip or two shorter trips then go to the ACMI. If you like the on/off variety from traditional style lines go to one of the LCC’s.

For me, getting 2-4 weeks off at every transition is priceless once you get used to one longer trip of 14-16 days away. The 777 guys sit home reserve much more. First year pay goes to $124ph in April. 64 hr guarantee. Top step CA under this contract is $297ph

If he’s over 50 or seriously will not survive three years at Envoy, then go. K4 or Omni are very both good careers. The difference in how management treats their pilots here is simply shocking after so many years of Envoy abuse.

If I were under 50 (I’m not) and had the choice of three years making $100k as an Envoy CA then walking into AA or coming here to Omni... and if I could survive the AAG stupidity, I’d stay at Envoy and go to AA.

If only a captain could make $100K for those three plus years waiting to flow. Even adding in per diem, that’s assuming you can consistently pick up 12-15 hours OT every month. Just doesn’t happen.

since when? Our CA’s used to bust $100 regularly. What’s an average 4 day trip worth these days?
Used to be 20-26 on average. The occasional heart stopper 28 hour 4 day trip showed up every once in a while too. We had very few lost days too which I hear is common now.

Cool story brah. Seriously, have you ever considered selling cars? Look, we've heard this sales pitch enough here. Why dont you pitch in the Omni thread? You aren't getting any takers here.

Most people could easily say the same of your posts.

I haven’t seen a 21 hour trip yet. Pretty sure our four day average is just under 18 hours. Maybe right at it. But yeah definitely not seeing anything in the mid 20’s.

Plus lots of lost days.

Or maybe he is, much like everything else you don’t know **** or refuse to prove you do. We know who you are, even if you do swap usernames.

Its pretty realistic, after my first year as a captain on mostly year 3 pay, bidding min guarantee every month and zero OT, I got very close. Add in my 401k matching and Im pretty much there.