Where is Charlie Bucket?
 

AVIATE (multiple carriers), DGI (Endeavor), a host of others Part 135 & 121 have a program yo mainline!

Before I go back into my cave, a little perspective for you. TSA had a flow-thru to Spirit Airline and I believe a Frontier agreement as well. Where are they now? Compass originally had a flow-thru ( Northwest Airlines/Delta). Where are they now?

If AAL mainline is the creamer’s goal, sure PSA, or Piedmont would be the place to be after research. They’ve had the fastest /still have the faster flow-thru for anyone hired prior to 2015... Just saying Flow-Thru is not special, certainly not unique, no matter what recruiters/marketing department say.

Focus. Everyone is one day older today. One day closer to age 65. One day closer to that big retirement bubble.

One day closer to my own retirement...

I think most are happy to have flow but most also hate the way Envoy uses unrealistic numbers for recruitment purposes.

If you were told you’d flow in 5 years and believed it, made it your reason for being here. Would you not be a little miffed when you got on property and realized that a 5 year flow is almost impossible for you?

It’s also a bit annoying how pilots here basically zero in on flow as the only way out of here. When I talk to people that work for other regionals and they have multiple references at multiple airlines because people are trying to get out where ever they can. Here, everyone has tunnel vision for AA so most of your networking is going to be with people that go to AA. And AA doesn’t hire a lot of regional pilots outside of flow.

Well, the gripes are against Envoy in general, but the flow gets special attention because it causes a lot of other problems. It is the primary sales pitch for recruiting, which keeps the Voy staffed regardless of its other shortcomings. It should be a backup plan, but the reality of things is that life at Envoy practically makes people locked into flow. Envoy is one of the slowest career builders in terms of building hours, upgrading, getting other boxes checked (LCA, CP, etc), then moving on to some major. Despite THKool-Aid's assurances that Envoy cadets are the best of the best, Envoy pilots are not hired at other majors at any higher rate than our regional counterparts. This causes a Catch-22 in that short flow times require high attrition as I spelled out above, but high attrition is not a reality at Envoy.

My primary reason for posting is to highlight realities of the flow for lurking cadets, and maybe wake up some of the current pilots at Envoy to stand strong for pay and QOL improvements. Unlike most other regional pilots, we are owned and managed by our mainline, but treated like second-class (or worse) citizens by them. Some new hire or cadet who drinks the Kool-Aid that they are "Already American" needs to face the reality that when they get on the AA seniority list, they will be behind over 6,000 pilots who are not "Already American" today.

The other popular misconception that needs highlighted is people coming here thinking that it improves their chances at getting hired by AA through the traditional hiring process. The non-flow hires are minimal, but that information surprises most of the people at the 'Voy.

AA hiring someone from a WO outside the flow very much goes against what the flow really is. The flow is a way to keep the WOs staffed. AAG and the WOs can better control the attrition at those WOs.

What better way to hurt a competitor in a tight labor market than to hire away THEIR feeder LCAs and captains.

It’s going to go well above that.

Not so fast my friend. It won't go that way at AA because of the flow through. Yeah, they might want 10k hours over at crappy old Omni, but coming through the cadet ranks at Envoy and flying the 175 puts you light years ahead of that old school stuff you are talking about.

Excellent observations and kudos for a great and positive post! You are absolutely right, when the flow starts back up it does have great significance and thus the reason that all the cadet universities gravitate toward Envoy.

You're such an idiot. I'm going to come back to this when AA starts hiring and prove you wrong. It will be worth it just to watch you try and back pedal on what you said.

The fact that you think the 175 somehow makes you more qualified is nuts.

You have jumped the shark and become your own meme. I can’t help but laugh at your posts anymore.

No, NO, NO! It’s because they’re an ENVOY CADET and go through that specialized 121 training curriculum that makes them AA from DAY ONE. That’s what makes them more qualified. And of course only the best and most qualified CADETS are capable of mastering the SNJ.

Which is why the SNJ needs that tech notice....

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Hey, try and keep up.... he was talking about street hire requirements.

Keep those eyes down the runway, kids.

It will be at least another year for the Flow to restart.

More than that.

As far as flow goes, word around the training department in April was that we would begin hiring again in July of 2021. That was when everyone thought demand would return quickly and before we parked the 767, 190, and 330 fleets. On the last bid we show being over staffed in July of 2021 by 1327 pilots which covers all retirements through the end of 2022. It could be well over a year, maybe 2 years before we start hiring again at AA.

But, but! THKoolAid SAID...

Might want to have a chat with TheKooj, as he "knows" people at the highest levels of Envoy/AA, not to mention this entire Covid-19 thing would "burn out" mid summer.

In all seriousness though, I think most of us around here expect a three year slow down to their career/flow. Thank you for the details.

Hopefully for everyone it comes back quicker, and retirements will help some. The problem still lies in the fact that DP just reiterated a couple days ago in a crew news that we are going to emerge from this as a much smaller airline which means those retirements will be used temporarily to reduce our size and won’t be replaced with new hires. I hope it turns around quick and you guys can start sending pilots over again sooner rather than later.

DP is gonna be lucky if AA emerges as an airline, nevermind as a smaller one.

AA doesn’t fit the model of a business that ceases to exist as a going concern. It certainly does seem to be on course for bankruptcy though as it slowly submerges in debt.

I bet we don't see another flow until well into 2022. We should get a board going and sell squares.

How many furloughs are we expecting at The Envoy? Rumors and numbers?

250-300 my guess

Isn't there a magic number of how long people need to be gone before the cost of bringing them back is justified by their being furloughed?

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I’ve heard 18 months.

I’ve heard one year

I've heard 2 weeks.

This is so dumb, furloughs are being talked about yet I was told no leaves of absence in the future, I had something lined up.

Lined up? Cleaner at a porn shoot site? :D

Will they offer voluntary lay offs. I wouldn't mind being laid off so a junior guy can keep his job

They usually offer a leave of absence to save jobs.

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Where is Charlie Bucket?
 

Sorry to hear! No one really knows the truth, the way or the path to recovery, it’s all a moving target, always do what is in your best interest.

FYI... It’s called being “envoyed” if ur screwed while trusting the company.

Check your emails....

If you're surprised at a 15%+ figure, you must not have been paying attention to the industry or economy since March. That's not getting Envoyed, that's the airline business.

That's not what the email said. It said the fleet projection is 15% smaller. That absolutely does not mean 15% of the pilots will be on furlough.

Just remember that we are flying under a bankruptcy contract. SAY NO TO CONCESSIONS

This/\

Pilot furloughs are expensive, it's entirely possible they decide that pilot furloughs are worth it and it's better to be a little fat on pilots for a little while, particularly when looking at the retirements that are coming. And while I recognize that's the positive spin, it's still a realistic possibility. Nobody knows yet what the real answer is and I'm sure while the company is talking to the union about 'solutions' the company message is going to be that 'it's bad'.

Envoy being fat on pilots? I have never seen that. They’d rather burn the reserve pilots/JM etc. than being fat on pilots. We’re talking about a company who rather be retroactive than proactive.