Originally Posted by MarkVI (Post 3237265)

The fact of the matter is that regional pilots fly longer days with more legs, into less controlled environments, often times under greater stress for statistical performance, on airframes with significantly older technology than mainline. A great example is the lack of in-flight weather.
.

Originally Posted by Inclined plane (Post 3237472)

All good points, but don’t forget about our lack of RNP approach capabilities. I’ve been stuck holding over BZN trying to get in because the wind shifted 180 in moderate snow 3 hours ahead of forecast with low ceilings for the ONLY runway in our FMS (R12) with winds 300 at 15g30, while an AA 737 comes in no problem on the RNP R30 approach. Our crews are facing the pressure to either be loured by ATC into attempting a scud running midfield downwind amidst local terrain for r30 hoping to pick it up visually, or to stay up and hold/divert. #harmonization


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Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3237482)

100% this. Look at SkyWest, they are multiple Epic-load updates ahead of us. There’s no reason that Envoy should be screwing around with green world when the damn airplane has the technology to stay in magenta. Fork over the money and help your pilots. I will even include a link. $7 million for the whole fleet. Less than the cost of a furlough.

https://aerospace.honeywell.com/cont...raer_ejets.pdf

Originally Posted by AeroEnvoy (Post 3237398)

This!!!
Its not the lack of airmanship or train. I think it all comes back to fatigue and mental strain. We work longer days, with early starts and minimum rest very frequently and we are afraid of calling fatigue because of the enormous pressure management puts on us to stay on schedule. We also have fewer days off which adds to our fatigue when we don’t even have time to decompress at home.

Originally Posted by MarkVI (Post 3237265)

I don't fly for ENY, but I do fly for a WO. All regionals have their challenges. ENY isn't the only one to make mistakes -- remember when CommuteAir missed the runway in Presque Isle?

The fact of the matter is that regional pilots fly longer days with more legs, into less controlled environments, often times under greater stress for statistical performance, on airframes with significantly older technology than mainline. A great example is the lack of in-flight weather. Mainline can access onboard wi-fi to access global weather products. All WO's are stuck using radar that couldn't heat up a bean burrito. Expand on that to the fact that, of the wholly owned' s, AA's largest singlet type is the 145 which isn't even equipped with a wifi product for the pilots to tap into.
Then we can discuss the consistently negative behavior of CP's at WO's. All of them are in it for the resume, because they got lazy flying the line, or because they're just not good pilots. Some of my CP's have been wrong, on the record, regarding airframe limitations, FOM procedures, MEL's, and HR and Corporate policies. But they sure will be quick to point out a lanyard that's not compliant, or socks that aren't black, or pants that aren't from an "approved" vendor.
So of course those poor guys were going to land in ORD. The risk of having to deal with Air Ops at a regional isn't the same as the risk at a mainline. There's no care, concern, or genuine leadership at almost any of the FFD carriers these days. Add to that their limited weather product availability, the fact that they probably didn't have gas to make them comfortable diverting (if I remember, I think the field was VMC at the time and at my company you'd have to go to court to get some extra gas on a VMC day).

TL;DR: All regionals have some safety issues. Almost all of them start and end at nonexistent leadership, poor culture, and a race to be "the best in the system, but only so far as on-time performance, because nobody cares about having the best place for our pilots." In some ways, this is no different than issues mainline carriers face. ENY pilots are just fine, and I've had the pleasure of jump seating on them a time or two. We might play like Navy vs. Army, but CNN's just looking to dog an airline now that people are flying again. This isn't a big issue. It would be a bigger issue if they had actually put the plane on that runway.

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 3237202)

It's not an either/or. CNN can be a joke without Fox being a journalistic triumph.

Besides, I guess my wit went right over your head.

Originally Posted by Crimson37Roger (Post 3237342)

I really want to fly with you so you can point out my flaws to my face. I’m sure you’re perfect in everything you do.

Originally Posted by Skip0927 (Post 3237515)

i appreciated your wit. Fortunately I think CNN cancelled its airport network. Can u imagine seeing a headline, “Envoy is dangerous” and then hearing the agent call for “American Eagle flt blah blah, operated by Envoy, with non stop service to TimBuk2”

Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3237482)

100% this. Look at SkyWest, they are multiple Epic-load updates ahead of us. There’s no reason that Envoy should be screwing around with green world when the damn airplane has the technology to stay in magenta. Fork over the money and help your pilots. I will even include a link. $7 million for the whole fleet. Less than the cost of a furlough.

https://aerospace.honeywell.com/cont...raer_ejets.pdf

Originally Posted by Skip0927 (Post 3237515)

i appreciated your wit. Fortunately I think CNN cancelled its airport network. Can u imagine seeing a headline, “Envoy is dangerous” and then hearing the agent call for “American Eagle flt blah blah, operated by Envoy, with non stop service to TimBuk2”

Originally Posted by FAR121 (Post 3237526)

It wasn't really an AirportNetwork. It was the same CNN content only with CNNAirportNetwork painted onto the bezel of the CRT TV.

Originally Posted by oldrebel (Post 3237377)

Really. Videos never lie.

Originally Posted by MarkVI (Post 3237265)

I don't fly for ENY, but I do fly for a WO. All regionals have their challenges. ENY isn't the only one to make mistakes -- remember when CommuteAir missed the runway in Presque Isle?

The fact of the matter is that regional pilots fly longer days with more legs, into less controlled environments, often times under greater stress for statistical performance, on airframes with significantly older technology than mainline. A great example is the lack of in-flight weather. Mainline can access onboard wi-fi to access global weather products. All WO's are stuck using radar that couldn't heat up a bean burrito. Expand on that to the fact that, of the wholly owned' s, AA's largest singlet type is the 145 which isn't even equipped with a wifi product for the pilots to tap into.
Then we can discuss the consistently negative behavior of CP's at WO's. All of them are in it for the resume, because they got lazy flying the line, or because they're just not good pilots. Some of my CP's have been wrong, on the record, regarding airframe limitations, FOM procedures, MEL's, and HR and Corporate policies. But they sure will be quick to point out a lanyard that's not compliant, or socks that aren't black, or pants that aren't from an "approved" vendor.
So of course those poor guys were going to land in ORD. The risk of having to deal with Air Ops at a regional isn't the same as the risk at a mainline. There's no care, concern, or genuine leadership at almost any of the FFD carriers these days. Add to that their limited weather product availability, the fact that they probably didn't have gas to make them comfortable diverting (if I remember, I think the field was VMC at the time and at my company you'd have to go to court to get some extra gas on a VMC day).

TL;DR: All regionals have some safety issues. Almost all of them start and end at nonexistent leadership, poor culture, and a race to be "the best in the system, but only so far as on-time performance, because nobody cares about having the best place for our pilots." In some ways, this is no different than issues mainline carriers face. ENY pilots are just fine, and I've had the pleasure of jump seating on them a time or two. We might play like Navy vs. Army, but CNN's just looking to dog an airline now that people are flying again. This isn't a big issue. It would be a bigger issue if they had actually put the plane on that runway.

Originally Posted by MarkVI (Post 3237265)

I don't fly for ENY, but I do fly for a WO. All regionals have their challenges. ENY isn't the only one to make mistakes -- remember when CommuteAir missed the runway in Presque Isle?

The fact of the matter is that regional pilots fly longer days with more legs, into less controlled environments, often times under greater stress for statistical performance, on airframes with significantly older technology than mainline. A great example is the lack of in-flight weather. Mainline can access onboard wi-fi to access global weather products. All WO's are stuck using radar that couldn't heat up a bean burrito. Expand on that to the fact that, of the wholly owned' s, AA's largest singlet type is the 145 which isn't even equipped with a wifi product for the pilots to tap into.
Then we can discuss the consistently negative behavior of CP's at WO's. All of them are in it for the resume, because they got lazy flying the line, or because they're just not good pilots. Some of my CP's have been wrong, on the record, regarding airframe limitations, FOM procedures, MEL's, and HR and Corporate policies. But they sure will be quick to point out a lanyard that's not compliant, or socks that aren't black, or pants that aren't from an "approved" vendor.
So of course those poor guys were going to land in ORD. The risk of having to deal with Air Ops at a regional isn't the same as the risk at a mainline. There's no care, concern, or genuine leadership at almost any of the FFD carriers these days. Add to that their limited weather product availability, the fact that they probably didn't have gas to make them comfortable diverting (if I remember, I think the field was VMC at the time and at my company you'd have to go to court to get some extra gas on a VMC day).

TL;DR: All regionals have some safety issues. Almost all of them start and end at nonexistent leadership, poor culture, and a race to be "the best in the system, but only so far as on-time performance, because nobody cares about having the best place for our pilots." In some ways, this is no different than issues mainline carriers face. ENY pilots are just fine, and I've had the pleasure of jump seating on them a time or two. We might play like Navy vs. Army, but CNN's just looking to dog an airline now that people are flying again. This isn't a big issue. It would be a bigger issue if they had actually put the plane on that runway.

Originally Posted by Outof410 (Post 3237584)

I didn’t have to read much further then the comment about our radars. I honestly think I complain about it every damn trip (also a AA WO, not envoy). So sick of having to tell ATC, sorry bud we can’t see anything give us a vector with what you see.

Originally Posted by Skip0927 (Post 3237515)

i appreciated your wit. Fortunately I think CNN cancelled its airport network. Can u imagine seeing a headline, “Envoy is dangerous” and then hearing the agent call for “American Eagle flt blah blah, operated by Envoy, with non stop service to TimBuk2”

Originally Posted by OldBiff (Post 3237225)

Plot twist the letter was released by mainline recruiting to kill the flow.

Originally Posted by MarkVI (Post 3237265)

I don't fly for ENY, but I do fly for a WO. All regionals have their challenges. ENY isn't the only one to make mistakes -- remember when CommuteAir missed the runway in Presque Isle?

The fact of the matter is that regional pilots fly longer days with more legs, into less controlled environments, often times under greater stress for statistical performance, on airframes with significantly older technology than mainline. A great example is the lack of in-flight weather. Mainline can access onboard wi-fi to access global weather products. All WO's are stuck using radar that couldn't heat up a bean burrito. Expand on that to the fact that, of the wholly owned' s, AA's largest singlet type is the 145 which isn't even equipped with a wifi product for the pilots to tap into.
Then we can discuss the consistently negative behavior of CP's at WO's. All of them are in it for the resume, because they got lazy flying the line, or because they're just not good pilots. Some of my CP's have been wrong, on the record, regarding airframe limitations, FOM procedures, MEL's, and HR and Corporate policies. But they sure will be quick to point out a lanyard that's not compliant, or socks that aren't black, or pants that aren't from an "approved" vendor.
So of course those poor guys were going to land in ORD. The risk of having to deal with Air Ops at a regional isn't the same as the risk at a mainline. There's no care, concern, or genuine leadership at almost any of the FFD carriers these days. Add to that their limited weather product availability, the fact that they probably didn't have gas to make them comfortable diverting (if I remember, I think the field was VMC at the time and at my company you'd have to go to court to get some extra gas on a VMC day).

TL;DR: All regionals have some safety issues. Almost all of them start and end at nonexistent leadership, poor culture, and a race to be "the best in the system, but only so far as on-time performance, because nobody cares about having the best place for our pilots." In some ways, this is no different than issues mainline carriers face. ENY pilots are just fine, and I've had the pleasure of jump seating on them a time or two. We might play like Navy vs. Army, but CNN's just looking to dog an airline now that people are flying again. This isn't a big issue. It would be a bigger issue if they had actually put the plane on that runway.

Originally Posted by sky jet (Post 3238082)

This is going to be an unpopular post but I came here to read what the people working at Envoy had to say about this Media presentation and came across the above post. For background, I flew Beech 1900's in the late 80's and early 90's with just VOR's NDB's and no autopilot and I believe the above statement to be true, IN THE UNITED STATES. Why is this in caps and why is it important? Because up until very recently ACMI pilots were flying second generation jets like B747-200's, DC10's and B727's into third world airports that are far more challenging and with on board equipment that was much less advanced than any RJ flying today. For the most part they quietly did it day in and day out safely. If you think your managements are bad look up the people that owned Evergreen, Rosenbaum, the original Southern Air Transport etc.. Even today many of the RJ's flying in the US have more advance avionics than the 747-400 which is still very popular with UPS, K4, Atlas and others. Many foreign pilots are operating the same aircraft you are today in places like India, Afghanistan and Africa successfully every day with working conditions that sometimes make slave galleys look like Carnival cruises. Why do I point all of this out? Stop using this as an excuse. Yes, the mainlines have bad pilots who make bone head moves, Yes, you work harder for less money than mainline pilots and many freight pilots. It's not an excuse. Up your game. Monitor the NFP or PIC and speak up when necessary. Sometimes you might need to shout if their head is up their a** and their ears are blocked. Just because your jobs are hard and CNN is a commentary presenter and not a news source doesn't mean that some of their points are wrong. A little introspection might be in order. Many will roll their eyes and flame away at this post. I understand. Nobody likes their part of the industry, company, co-workers or themselves embarrassed in the media but it's out there now. Maybe we all can learn something from it.

Originally Posted by UncreativeUser (Post 3238089)

The point we are making is that we are getting blasted for doing a go around while other airlines have landed on taxiways, while a national news piece wasn’t done on it.

There’s learning from mistakes, and then there’s hit pieces from a news network that lost their airport contract, while knowingly attacking the American Airlines brand as well, which affects the American Eagle brand, and subsequent regionals who fly for AE branded flights.

That’s great you flew 6 packs with NDB’s, so have I. But that doesn’t matter for this context. When you have a training program that forces you to adapt to newer technologies (rightfully so) and then only put half of that technology in the aircraft that they expect you to fly to just past the edge of minimums with a snow storm with faulty ATC directives, and you STILL conduct a go around and then get in trouble for it, at what point do you win? It becomes a culture problem, not an aircraft equipment problem.


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Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3237482)

100% this. Look at SkyWest, they are multiple Epic-load updates ahead of us. There’s no reason that Envoy should be screwing around with green world when the damn airplane has the technology to stay in magenta. Fork over the money and help your pilots. I will even include a link. $7 million for the whole fleet. Less than the cost of a furlough.

https://aerospace.honeywell.com/cont...raer_ejets.pdf

Originally Posted by FltCtrlNoDsptch (Post 3238254)

Envoy flies the 175 in green?

Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3238365)

Magenta with preview for the ILS then switches to green. LOC is green as well with FPA.

Originally Posted by CaseTractor (Post 3238411)

Who was at fault for a go around? I thought it was pretty clear go arounds are encouraged from the top? Not familiar with that specific situation

Originally Posted by NoValueAviator (Post 3238416)

Apparently we're all at fault for the go-around

moral: never go around????

Originally Posted by NoValueAviator (Post 3238416)

Apparently we're all at fault for the go-around

moral: never go around????

Originally Posted by coodrough568 (Post 3238694)

ah I love flying with people who make up their own original call-outs!

Originally Posted by coodrough568 (Post 3238694)

ah I love flying with people who make up their own original call-outs!

Originally Posted by havick206 (Post 3238603)

Real men don’t go around?

Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3238736)

"Intermittent ground contact"

Originally Posted by BigZ (Post 3238881)

isn't that a kind of a landing?

Originally Posted by Dougweiser (Post 3238962)

Word on the street is rn and rw may be looking for other jobs soon. Apparently AA is not happy with the publicity. Anyone else hear anything?

Originally Posted by Dougweiser (Post 3238962)

Word on the street is rn and rw may be looking for other jobs soon. Apparently AA is not happy with the publicity. Anyone else hear anything?

Originally Posted by hydrostream (Post 3238889)

We had a Seattle Times piece about us here at Horizon a while back. It sucked, but after a couple weeks of family and friends going “hey did you see that?” it was quickly forgotten about. It makes good news I guess. Probably like predicting stock market crashes, if something ever does happen they can say “we told you so!” Cast your net wide...