DEC
 

Are the DEC’s that are being hired making it through training for the most part. Will be current, study and an attitude to learn and be taught.

The training is sufficient to get a competent pilot through. Some of the non line qualified instructors are hit and miss. All the seniority list instructors and check airmen are great. If you put the work in and have a good attitude, they will do everything they can and you can make it through. There are certainly some that don’t make it through and honestly there are some that take a bit longer to get weeded out than others.

Don't forget to use your words; complete sentences. Punctuation matters.

I was in a class of 50+, almost all DECs (3 F/Os I think?), and 3 that I know of didn't make it. Of those 3, one quit because he didn't want to go to remedial training, and the other 2 were let go after IOE.

During my brief career, I have attended flight training with Flight Safety and 2 airlines, and I can tell you this: I have never experienced such disorganized, unstandardized training, anywhere!

However, as mentioned above, my experience with instructors was very positive, as they are all very nice and always willing to help if needed. A stark contrast to my previous airline training experience, 20 years ago.

I hadn't flown in 13 years, a friend of mine in almost 20 years, neither of us had any difficulty getting though training. As long as you study your flows, call-outs and procedures, and your judgement is sound, you will be fine ;-)

Stupid question, but how can you be fired after IOE?

Do something stupid.

Not at Envoy, but I've seen people fired after OE following numerous F/O complaints, and I've seen people fired for doing anything from smearing their hotel room with feces to threatening crewmembers, drinking on the job, lying, screaming at hotel check-in staff. Line checks, unsafe behavior, damaging an airplane, even social media posts.

I've also seen an upgrade fail his LOFT ride after his upgrade training is all but done; there's no such thing as "non-jeopardy," no matter what anyone may tell you.

In order to pass IOE as a DEC, you must pass a line check and Fed Ride. They are looking for people who act like a captain, exhibit sound judgment, who make their altitude and speed restrictions, and don’t bust any FARs or aircraft limitations. Even an FO can fail IOE if no line check airman will sign them off after lots of extra IOE time. It is not common to be let go after IOE, but there is more to being a good line pilot than the ability to pass a checkride.

All new captains at Envoy are required to get 50 hours of IOE, FOs get 25 hours of IOE. They will give you more if needed, but eventually someone is going to make a judgement call on you.

I should have said "During" IOE, since that's the part of the training they didn't pass... I would say that it's an unusual part of the training to fail, but it does happen. Poor judgement, inability to transfer your learned skills to the line, exceedingly poor CRM, absence of time management, etc.

oh-my-gawd! 😳

Oh, that's tame compared to some.

proof that experience matters. Back during the few years they were hiring low time guys, IOE went up to over 80 hours and a few broke 100 hrs of IOE.

You've been gone what, 10 years now? And you still post here like you know what's going on. You don't have your finger on the pulse here Cuj. You just made another attempt at a false narrative. It's fake news. Sure, there were a few outliers that had in the 80ish range of OE. But the VAST majority had far, far less.

Still sounds like loads of regret on your part about not flying in a shiny AA jet.

Hey, you must be Wilson because Neider actually isn't a bad guy.

Wow, this just keeps getting better. ANOTHER guy who decided the grass was greener and is ALSO now working for a lowball ACMI. Guess it's something in the water for you two. And....who also has serious regrets for making a world class mistake. You too could have been in that shiny AA jet. SMDH.

In my class of 18 DECs, we lost 3 during sim training despite being given lots of extra sim time. Everyone else has now passed IOE. If it was easy they wouldn’t pay so much.

50 DECs seems like a large number. Are most returning to the industry after time away, or are they from other regionals? Where are the people coming from, and if other companies are losing people, what are those companies? That’s great for Envoy, and any DEC on the list, I’m just surprised the applicant pool has not dried up yet.

I think the class of 50 was from last fall, but there is still a small and steady stream of DECs coming into Envoy. There are about a hundred beneath me and I started in March.

I have spoken to some pilots who retired early during Covid, and decided to fly for Envoy for a couple years to pad their retirement accounts. I have spoken to some who flew for Mesa and wouldn’t upgrade there because they heard the training department failed people unnecessarily, but they would take a DEC job at Envoy for enough money. One GoJet DEC decided the grass was greener here, and he hadn’t gotten a bonus at GoJet. A Republic FO who thought it was unfair DECs at Republic were offered bonuses but he wasn’t, so he would rather be a captain at Envoy with the bonus. Some long haul and ACMI pilots are tired of the schedules and type of flying and nostalgic about regional flying decided to come give it another go. Some pilots left Part 121 flying for Part 135 flying, and decided the pay at Envoy was a good reason to try Part 121 flying again. Some ExpressJet pilots found something else to do after their company folded and are returning to flying at Envoy. And there are many pilots who left regional flying during the lost decade when career prospects were bleak for pay, lifestyle, or family reasons.

Overall, the motivation is money or the desire to get back into flying again. Envoy was offering jet refresher training and the opportunity to sit in the right seat for captain pay for awhile, then when you showed up for Orientation after signing a promissory note for the jet refresher, they said everyone with 1,000 hours Part 121 time was required to train as a captain.

Covers most of it. The other thing is part of the same reason people choose Mainline AA over Delta or United. Location, location, location. Different people want to call different places home and those are either Envoy bases, or a more reasonable commute from where that home is.

Thanks guys, good explanation.

sounds good for all and glad it is working out for so many!

You know, just like everything else, you are wrong. There are LOTS of people that leave the WOs and get hired at AA long before their flow date would come up. If weren’t already in the the danger close to flow location, leaving Envoy and going almost anywhere would get you to AA in six or eight months. He certainly doesn’t need anyone else to stand up for him, but Dera made the choice that worked for him and isn’t looking back out of regret or nostalgia, but still trying to help people get perspective.

You on the other hand stay because it’s your only option. Probably know that despite the training program at AA, you’ve got your name on the dirt bag list and know you won’t make it through.

Not that you really deserve a response but no, I would still be at Envoy if I really wanted to work for AA and waited to flow, as AA avoids hiring from it's own feed. Looks like I would be around 2.5 years away from flow right now. The ones who did leave around the same time I did, many of them are at AA (and even more at other legacies) right now, some just got CA awards. They beat the flow by 3-5 years while enjoying a superior QOL and money compared to staying at Envoy. Those 5000 numbers in seniority they are gaining over flows are worth a few million dollars at the end of their career.

Eagerly waiting for your next ad hominem.

Decline Bonus
 

Has anyone declined the sign-on bonus? Are you marked with a bullseye, do they rescind the CJO? My fear is that I take it and then an astroid hits or something and the industry tanks. I still have a family to look out for and can’t take a furlough. Anyone on here actually turn it down?

People turn it down all the time. Several in my new hire class. Can't say whether they got a bullseye painted on them. I doubt it.

Thanks for the info!

Why are you concerned about a furlough if you take the bonus? Not sure what the current language is, but has always been pay back if you choose to leave or otherwise fail to complete the required time because of your actions (training failure, fired for cause). While furlough time might not count towards fulfilling the contract obligation time, it shouldn’t trigger a repayment either. Failing to return after a furlough, however, likely would require repayment.

Take the bonus and invest it. Just don’t spend it. There have been MANY discussions about what to do if you have to pay it back and the tax ramifications.

Thanks. The issue isn’t the furlough and having to pay it back, but getting furloughed and leaving for a job that provides for my family. I’ve made up my mind though now. One additional question though, I’ve seen that DEC’s should plan on flying all reserve days, which is fine by me. What is an avg credit for a month of DEC RSV, knowing that 75 is the guarantee?

You'll average 50-60 hours of actual flying per month on reserve until you get a composite line.

Meanwhile Dera is getting a month and a half off at a time, deadheading in first class all over the world, hanging out in lounges, and barely working when he goes to “work.” I’m pretty sure he’s doing better than an individual who spent his time kissing CW’s butt in the ORD CPO.

You are on probation for a year, so somewhat easy.

Don't do stupid **** and also don't do things like your old company did them. You left <XYZ> for a reason.

Oh and please don't treat your fairly experienced MQ FO like crap either. We know the MQ way and the plane fairly well. We're happy to help make our trip easy together so we go home with no paperwork. I've been lucky and most of the DECs have been cool, but a few classmates of mine have horror stories about DECs.

A smart MQ FO is happy to have you DECs show up (as long as y'all are pretty cool). You'll keep us from ever sitting reserve when we upgrade. I usually buy the first two rounds if we go out in appreciation of this fact. (regardless of your $100k bonus)

Welcome, let's have a good trip with no paperwork.

I agree with several of your points explicitly. An FO in the 121 world is a REQUIRED CREWMEMBER, and should always be treated as such. I spent 18 of my 31 years in this business as an FO, so I get what you're saying. I'd like to hope the days of crusty old CAs saying "Just sit there and shut up, don't touch anything unless I tell you to," are long since passed. I was an FO in those days, and some guys were no fun to be around at all, much less to fly with.

I will add that "Don't do things the way they did it at your old company," could be said with some flex. We all collect our paycheck from Envoy Air, and should fly the airplane using the procedures the way they want. It's not our plane, it's theirs, and they pay us to do things a certain way. BUT, there are some techniques that guys like me who have spent 3 decades in this industry might have learned at other companies that are always valuable. For example: There is very little emphasis put on verifying the correct runway we've been cleared by ATC to cross, or line up on, or on looking outside the window to see if there is a plane on final. I'd hazard a guess that 90% of the FOs I'm flying, when we get a "Line up and wait" from tower, immediately go into their before takeoff flow without even looking outside to see if there is an airplane on short final for that runway. Not so long ago out of DCA we got that exact scenario...as soon as the tower cleared us into position, the FO read it back and picked up the checklist. I jumped on the radio and said, "We'll hold short." There was a plane at about 400' on short final. From my previous airline, we both had to verify verbally any runway we were given a clearance to cross the hold short line of, as well as "clear left," and "clear right" before crossing said hold line. Is that procedure here? No. Do I tell FOs they have to do it when the fly with me? No. Do I still do it myself every time? Absolutely. It's habit, and a technique that I'll never give up because I believe it's a good idea, and because everyone makes mistakes sometimes including tower controllers.

So don't discount the experience and techniques some of us still carry with us after we took an early retirement, or buyout, then decided to come back to work for a bit. As you said, nobody has to be a d!ck about any of it, and nobody should be treating anyone in the cockpit as anything other than a necessary part of the team to make things work well. There are a lot of guys in this industry who make the job a lot harder than it has to be.

As you know there is room in our SOPs for technique. I am happy to learn techniques. Fortunately none of the DECs I have had were a problem... pretty cool in fact. My classmates have reported some challenges being dismissed or DECs flat out contradicting SOPs.

Please check FOM 4G.1.6 digital page 653
"...verbally confirm scan results with each other."

Technically no it does not say to call out "Clear Left/Right", but the spirit is there to verbally confirm the runway is correct and clear to cross.

I love DCA for how crazy it is on the ground.

I have a buddy that took an early retirement from a major airline during Covid. He got a little bored during retirement and is filling out the PRIA paperwork as a DEC. If someone could give some intel on the expected junior base and if PHX would be possible within a few months. Much appreciated.

Pure guess. Dallas would be the junior base. Phoenix is likely to be full very soon. That doesn't mean it won't change as the base grows but it is a small base. There are already people coming to PHX through December. You have to remember this stuff changes all the time. When I was hired less than a year ago I believe some folks were forced to Chicago. 3 months later it was back to DFW. I think PHX will be harder to get in 2024 as a DEC but what the heck do I know?

Phoenix has gone very junior for direct entry captains. It may not be an option in Indoc but is very likely attainable on the next bid. Several Direct Entry Captains were junior assigned to Phoenix on the July 8th bid. Right now there isn’t much flying available for reserve captains in Phoenix. Those who live in Phoenix are happy to sit at home on reserve and not get called, but many of us who commute are trying to bid out to other bases where we will fly more. Base bids are done about 4 times a year. Base trades can be done with the union between those bids. I’m trying to get out of Phoenix and no active captains from ORD or DFW will trade with me. Phoenix is slowly growing but they are intentionally keeping it very over staffed. I sat a month as a reserve captain in Phoenix without being called.

The junior base a few months ago was ORD. The junior base is now DFW since that base is growing the most and many ORD E145 pilots have now retrained on the E175. Miami is senior. Everyone who wanted Phoenix got it on the last bid. If your friend can be patient he won’t have to wait long for Phoenix. Even if they don’t post vacancies in Phoenix, they will backfill when some of us bid out. The retired AA captain in my Indoc class is rather disgruntled at receiving regional airline treatment. The E175 is a sweet airplane to fly if you can put up with years of reserve and 12 days off.

All good info. A new bid just came out. No openings for PHX. FYI

True. But there will likely be backfills when some of us bid out of Phoenix. I'm bidding out, and I know one captain going to Southwest soon.

There are more captain openings in ORD this time but DFW and PHX should be attainable in a short period of time.

While you can plan on years of reserve as a DEC, currently at DFW, DECs 11-12 months on property are holding lines (14-15 days off). Granted, all 4 day trips and through the weekends. You could hold a composite line 9-ish months on property. Many of the senior folk bid reserve to stay home and cherry pick trips when they feel like getting out of the house.
So there is hope. But keep in mind this could all change a year from now. YMMV.